Episode 21.
This week, we are talking about the breakup of Joe Jonas and Sophie Turner and the PR wars that started even before the divorce papers were filed. The media started publishing an onslaught of rumours from “sources” close to Jonas, painting him as the victim in the relationship, and Turner as a runaway mother and wannabe party-girl.
But not everyone is buying it. On social media some commenters have pushed back by calling out misogyny and mum-shaming in the media narratives surrounding the Game of Thrones star. Even the women on the view accused the Jonas camp of deliberate “spin” and a “smear” campaign.
So today we’re going to be asking - why do we frame relationship breakups as a winner and a loser? In PR terms, why do celebrities play the victim? And why are we no longer buying it so easily?
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Click here for the full transcript
Lisa 00:06
2023 seems to be the year of the Hollywood divorce.
Sarah 00:09
Kevin Costner, Reese Witherspoon, Britney Spears, and now Hugh Jackman have all announced divorces so far this year.
Lisa 00:17
But today we're gonna be looking at the breakup of Joe Jonas and Sophie Turner. And the PR wars that started straight out of the gate.
Sarah 00:23
Right off the bat, an onslaught of rumours from sources close to Joe Jonas have tried to paint him as the victim in the relationship.
Lisa 00:30
But a lot of people are not buying it, and have called him out for playing the victim, and the media for mum-shaming Turner in the narrative that's been presented.
Sarah 00:38
So today we're going to be asking, why do we frame relationship breakups as a winner and a loser? In PR terms why do celebrities play the victim? And why are we no longer buying it so easily?
Lisa 00:49
Well, let's go straight to the comments.
Sarah 00:51
So let's just start with a bit of background as we like to do. Joe Jonas is one of the Jonas Brothers and he's been a boyband idol since his teens. And he's previously been linked with other celebrity women such as Taylor Swift and Demi Lovato. But we might all remember him as part of the Disney Kids and how him and his brothers famously all wore purity rings. They were very Christian. And they made an abstinence pledge with these rings to stay pure until marriage. Although they famously didn't. In 2016, Jonas first connected through Instagram with Sophie Turner, who famously played Sansa Stark in Game of Thrones.
Lisa 01:31
He then slid into her DMs, which is I believe what the kids say?
Sarah 01:36
Yeah, I definitely feel too old to be sliding into any DMs. But they got engaged a year later and married twice in 2019. First in a surprise ceremony in Vegas, which Diplo live streamed for some reason. And later a lavish affair in the French countryside. But skip ahead four years and two children later, and on the fifth of September, Jonas filed for divorce, claiming the marriage between the parties is irretrievably broken. And then the following day, they made a joint announcement on Instagram having turned off comments, and I don't blame them for doing that. “After four wonderful years of marriage we've mutually decided to amicably end our marriage. There are many speculative narratives as to why, but truly this is a united decision. And we sincerely hope that everyone can respect our wishes for privacy for us and our children”. Now, that kind of announcement it sounds very PRy to me, doesn't it Lisa?
Lisa 02:30
Yeah, it does feel like it's been written by their PR team. But it does feel relatively tame compared to the sort of spiritual spin you're seeing a lot on divorce Instagram posts nowadays. I'm thinking of, you know, Gwyneth’s “unconscious uncoupling” from Chris Martin.
Sarah 02:45
Yeah, that was quite a phrase. No one knew what they were talking about. But then on another level, part of me quite liked the message of trying to be friends after a breakup, especially if you've got kids.
Lisa 02:56
I do. And I really liked that positive spin and that side of it. But what do you think about this Instagram post that I found from Kate Bosworth, when she was announcing her divorce from Michael Polish? She wrote, “our greatest honour has been to experience a love like this, and marvel at the beauty of love’s evolution, this is just the beginning.” And then someone commented underneath. “If you're so in love with each other, why are you getting divorced?” And then someone else said, “you're getting divorced. This pseudo romanticization of pretending it’s some amazing thing is narcissistic and a subversion of reality”.
Sarah 03:33
I totally get what they're saying. Because it seems, I understand that it seems it's important for the PR teams to almost overemphasise how amicable the split is partly maybe so people don't start digging into any possible scandals behind the scenes. And it seems like they're then trying to prevent it from becoming a much bigger story. But in response to the Joe Jonas and Sophie Turner announcement, people said, so on Twitter, “if they break up, I'll never believe in love again”. Which, why do I think that that person is definitely under 20 years of age? And another tweet was “world before and after this information.” And under that was an image of two Earths that looked exactly the same.
Lisa
That's brilliant. Love it.
Sarah
Yeah. Yeah. But I mean, even before filing the rumour mill had already started to go into overdrive. So on September the third, a source told people that Jonas had retained a divorce lawyer. While representatives for journalists did not immediately respond to People's requests for comment a rep for Turner declined to comment. And then TMZ reported they were headed for divorce and claims sources say the couple has had a serious problem for at least six months. The sources also said that over the last three months, Joe had been caring for their two young children pretty much all the time, even as his band was touring.
Lisa 04:53
Wow, that was big of him. That's a bit sarcastic. I know. Yeah. But the same day there was a photo article of him without his wedding ring, which, you know, the people love to speculate on, you know classic go back to our Ariana Grande episode. You know, when she was at Wimbledon.
Sarah 05:10
They do, they love that. It brings out all the armchair detectives. And supposedly he'd been going ringless at least as early as August the 11th. But, you know, as you can see from that first source with the direct knowledge, quotation marks, the narrative had already been set up that Sophie was the problem. That she’d abandoned her responsibilities with their kids. On top of the stories where they had him left holding the kids, there were stories that said “she likes to party, he likes to stay at home, they have very different lifestyles”. Or their angle was that she was homesick for England and wanted to move back there. And then there was this crazy story. I don't know if you heard it? That claimed Joe captured Sophie saying and or doing something on a ring camera that made him realise the marriage was over. It was all very cryptic.
Lisa 06:00
That is so strange. Like I don't even know what a ring camera is. I'm assuming it's some sort of security footage.
Sarah
I mean, yeah, I think so.
Lisa
Like what could be so bad. Maybe I shouldn't go there.
Sarah 06:12
I do think a story like that is almost designed to create speculation of what it could be, the worst possible thing, what was she doing? But other stories went further and they created a whole narrative. So the Mail Online published a report stating that “the actress separated from him at the beginning of summer, and had been partying with high school friends and vacationing in Europe”. This anonymous friend claimed that Joe Jonas tried to save their marriage and visited the UK with their kids in the summer. However, after his efforts failed, he returned to the US with their kids and has been living there ever since. So this anonymous friend was quoted as saying, “Sophie feels like she's only just waking up to what her life and reality really is. She became famous at a very young age, then married and had kids at a young age and never really had the teenage years of sleeping around and just having carefree fun with friends”. So comments in response to these stories ranged from mum shaming Turner. So on the Mail Online someone said “What kind of mother does this?” Another one, “Sophie is a bad mom. The most important time of a child's entire life is 0-6 months. My mother was like this. Travelled, partied with her friends, wanted to have fun and I have spent a lifetime wishing I had a mother. You open your legs, then you have to put your children first.”
Lisa 07:25
Wow, that's quite, that's quite a lot. But I think it is important to point out that the reason that she's actually been away is that she's actually filming in the UK, a new ITV drama called Joan.
Sarah 07:36
Exactly. And filming for the series actually started in May. So she's been filming in the UK this whole time while he's currently on tour in America. But other responses focused on their age difference. So there was one comment that said “she settled down too young now she wants to party”. And a second comment, “they rushed into starting a family too soon, one baby right after the other”. And a third one from the Mail Online. “Joe Jonas started dating Sophie Turner when she was 19. Married her at 23, knocked her up at 24. She was just finishing Game of Thrones. She hardly worked these years and followed him on tours. Like he's giving zero support husband vibes.”
Lisa 08:18
I actually didn't realise how young she was. I mean, I know she's been a child actress and that she started in Game of Thrones pretty young. I think she was just like, 15 years old.
Sarah 08:28
Yeah, she was. She was actually really young and maybe and sometimes people grow up much quicker. You know, when they start working that young. But other people have actually called out the double standards, particularly around Turner being dragged for being a working mum. And then Jonas being praised for caring for his own kids. So a Mail Online comment, “what a surprise. He's complaining because he has to look after his own children. No wonder she wants a divorce”. And another comment. “And when he was touring, Sophie cared for the kids. Why is it news when the mother goes to work and the father has to be a parent? Unbelievable”. And then Jezebel’s former editor in chief Laura Bassett, she's summed up basically the gist and the coverage in a viral tweet, where she said, “I think I'm supposed to gather from all the carefully placed headlines that Turner's a partier, and thus a bad mom, while he's the hero dad making sacrifices. But no one seems to question why Jonas at 30 decided to marry a 23 year old and thought she had suddenly turned into a Trad wife.” And for anyone who doesn't know, I think a Trad wife is one of these terms that refers to anyone who wants to follow like traditional gender roles in terms of like a traditional wife role. But do you think that there's an inherent double standard with working mums and dads? And I mean, I know you've said to me before that there are actually very different expectations in Norway, which is more of a socialist culture.
Lisa 09:51
Oh, yeah. I do think there's a big difference. I do think working mums have it tougher in the UK. I thought, I would see more women leaving the office to sort of you know do the school run or manage child's sick days. And I honestly don't know how they manage doing full time jobs as well as being mums and taking care of their children. And here in Norway, it's very much a 50/50 situation like I mentioned before. And I think that's very much because of the financial support Norway provides. I mean, women have full paid maternity up to 12 months, men also get paid paternity leave up to four months. And childcare is extremely affordable. So it's all really geared up to support both men and women to have careers and to continue working. So I don't think Norwegians would be giving out any hero awards to Joe Jonas for just parenting his children, you know.
Sarah 10:39
Sounds like a good place to live.
Lisa
Yeah.
Sarah
I mean, there's been quite a lot of opinion pieces that have blamed the media specifically for this double standard. Arwa Mahdawi in The Guardian, she wrote, “if the kids had been living with Turner while Jonas was busy with work in a different country, then nobody would have batted an eyelid. Women after all, are expected to make sacrifices for their kids, they're expected to always put their kids in front of their career. Whenever a father spends time with his own children, however, he gets lauded for babysitting. Whenever a father makes sacrifices that people routinely expect from others, then people seem to want to give him a goddamn medal.” And Patricia Grisafi, she wrote an opinion piece on CNN, in that she said “America loves to punish a bad mother. And there is a long history of using prominent celebrities as cautionary figures of abominable motherhood.” But it's not really just the media itself that is being blamed for this situation. It's also the deliberate PR and placing of stories that people have commented on a lot.
Lisa 11:43
In this case they have and they've been really picking apart that there's been two very different narratives. She's been working, like we said on this TV series, but they're already setting the narrative that she's like partying, and that he tried to save the marriage, but she's being like irresponsible. And right from the start, it's felt like only one side was being presented through these so called sources, you know, on Twitter, ““a source” whole time the source is him”. Another tweet, “a source of telling TMZ, which means someone from his team is working overtime, making him look good, because there are rumours that he cheated, and left her for a 20 year old fangirl”.
Sarah 12:20
I mean, those are also unsubstantiated rumours. But it's very clear that her team are taking more of the dignified silence route. Yeah, but straightaway, there were also photos of her drinking in a bar plastered all over the news. But it actually turned out that these photos were from the wrap party for her series. So if you work in that industry, this is essentially a work event that she pretty much has to go to. It's it's not like she's just out there on the lash, as we would say in the UK.
Lisa
Yeah.
Sarah
But the Mail Online even went as far to have an interview with the bartender from that party, who told them that “Turner partied without a care in the world just days before her divorce was announced”. And supposedly this bartender who didn't actually know her claimed “it was obvious when I was with Sophie that she wanted to return to her days of partying. I sensed that she was missing those times”. I mean, that's a really crazy claim from a stranger, you know?
Lisa 13:18
I mean, how the hell does he know? Is he some sort of like psychic, honestly?
Sarah 13:23
Yeah, it's just crazy the stories that they put together from people who are really not involved in their lives. But interestingly, it feels like the overall reaction is that people aren't buying the narrative that they've been trying to push.
Lisa 13:39
I don't think they have at all and I think people are really smelling bullshit. There's been a lot of comments like this on Twitter. “In my opinion, Joe's team called up TMZ to plant the story, because he wants Sophie to know who the boss is. Since she has gone back to work in the UK. It seems like pure manipulation”. Then on the Mail Online, “the smear campaign has been heavy handed and obvious. I love that it's backfiring on him”. Then another comment on the Mail Online. “I lost respect for Joe when he intentionally took his daughters out in public the very next day after the divorce was announced. Super manipulative and spiteful move.”
Sarah 14:14
Yeah. And that's what they call a pap walk, isn't it?
Lisa
Yeah.
Sarah
Let's assume, say these stories have been planted by his PR team. It definitely feels like it has backfired terribly. I do think that PR company is gonna get fired. But why do you think, I know you used to work in PR, why do you think it's so important to manage how you're perceived during a public divorce?
Lisa 14:37
Well, I think it's because the stakes can be really high. As we probably all know, if you're super famous, to quote a firm that specialises in doing divorce PR for high profile people they warn “celebrities must be wary of how their divorce is reported. If they are seen as the party in the wrong it can cause immeasurable damage to their reputation and earning potential. Heather Mills was famously derided following her story from Sir Paul McCartney, whilst the Prince of Wales’ divorce almost brought down the monarchy itself. Any A lister whose marriage comes to an end must be wary of the potential for this damage and must act accordingly. Whether it's ensuring a dignified silence or going on the PR offensive, as you move on to a new independent life, your reputation will be an important part of that. The reporting of your divorce can make a huge difference to your public perception and future earning potential. It is vital that you manage it correctly.” And then a very important point they make which I didn't really understand. I mean, they say that divorces are very hard to keep secret. They go on public record, but particularly in America, all the court filings like we've seen with the Kevin Costner and Alice Evans divorce can be made public and up for scrutiny.
Sarah 15:48
Yeah, I mean, I would say this is not really something new. Because back in the Hollywood Golden Age, the studio's would would carefully guard the public personas of big stars. I mean, they reportedly arranged lavender marriages, they hid abortions and pregnancies, because they really knew that the public bought into the stars and their lives as a package deal. And that scandals could essentially ruin careers and and more importantly, the bottom line for the studio. So I think that's why they managed it so much.
Lisa 16:20
Absolutely. Especially if there was a sort of huge public love story and wedding you know, I think we've seen the public tends to rally around and support one person. Think of Team Diana, Team Brad Pitt, Team Johnny Depp. It really can have devastating consequences if you play the PR game wrong.
Sarah 16:40
So going back to the Jonas and Turner divorce, it does feel like Jonas's team are really employing PR tactics here. But they've essentially made a misstep, and it's caused an even bigger backlash. So as Rebecca Jennings says in Vox, “it's turned into a publicity battle playing out in the tabloids, one that uses all the traditional elements of PR warfare, except the difference is that this time, the public isn't buying it.” And I mean, even the cast of The View called out Jonas's spin. Where do you think they actually went wrong with this spin?
Lisa 17:12
I mean, part of it is that this new narrative contradicts previous information. I mean, during an interview with Conan O'Brien in April 2020, during the COVID 19, lockdown, Turner confessed that she was kind of loving being in quarantine. And when O'Brien asked if she liked the business of staying home, she replied,” yeah, I'm an introvert. I'm just like, if I could stay home all day, I would do this. So it's great for me. I leave the house like once a day anyway to walk my dog. And then that's it.” She also said that Jonas was the opposite and called him a real social butterfly. She said, “so I struggled to lock him down and have him just spend time with me. It's like prison for him. But it's great for me”. People have long memories, especially those on Reddit, who pointed out these inconsistencies. Someone said, “the math ain't mathing”. And then someone else said “during lockdown Sophie stated that she was glad it meant Joe finally spent some time at home because she's the homebody, the North remembers.”
Sarah 18:05
I have to say I love all the Game of Thrones references, and it does seem to be really taking off in the memes. But it also seems that people on the whole are much more aware of spin these days, don't you think?
Lisa 18:16
Oh, absolutely. I think social media has really changed the way that PR works. There's, you know, more and more social media accounts, like we discussed in our blind gossip episode that go behind the scenes sort of opening up that world of celebrity spilling the secrets on the way that the game is played. For example, Molly McPherson, who since the 1990s has worked in crisis communication are now a popular tic taco in educating people on how to decode PR speak. She says in previous decades, celebrities, their publicist, and their lawyers were used to having privacy control when they manage traditional media. Social media has turned that model upside down. The public has the power to shape and control the narrative, and it's very difficult to control it. In the case of Jonas's team, it seems they went in using the wrong PR playbook, and McPherson says they're trying to manage the press in order to shape public opinion. And they're learning that they cannot shape public opinion through manipulation anymore. It was a clumsy attempt at making Joe Jonas appear like the victim in the public spiralling of this divorce. No one was buying it.
Sarah 19:23
You know, another thing that I've really noticed about this is a two faced element I want to call it, yeah, they have their PR teams plant negative stories about their partner, who is also let's just point out the mother of their children. And then they claim they're not going to say anything negative. So for example, he was performing to a sold out crowd at LA Dodger Stadium four days after he filed for divorce. And what he said to the audience was, “it's been a crazy week. I just want to say if you don't hear it from these lips, don't believe it. Okay. Thank you, everyone for the love and support to me and my family. I love you guys”. But for me, that's almost worse. Because it seems fairly likely that he, he or his team are planting these smear stories. They're also juxtaposing them with these organised pap walks with the kids, you know, at the same time, but he's claiming that he's not gonna say anything, and it's all not true. So there's something a little bit false about that to me.
Lisa 20:18
Yeah. And I think there's, like when I first heard this story, I think my first thing was like, why is he trying to pretend to be the victim? Why is he coming out so quick as the victim? And I think that it really made me think about this time article about Amber Heard and Johnny Depp and the idea of like the perfect victim, “one such myth is the perfect victim”, they wrote, “the perfect victim isn't innocent, she doesn't drink or do drugs. She has corroborating evidence, but not too much evidence, because that would indicate she's vindictive, and plan to speak out. She does no wrong at the office in relationships as a mother or daughter. She's never lied about anything ever in her entire life. She dresses appropriately. She's ideally virginal, she's simplistic, she does not exist”.
Sarah 21:03
I think it really sums up the problem that a lot of sexual assault victims have had in the legal system. Even though they're the victim, they're often put on trial. And unless they're completely unblemished, and their their actions are perfect. It's somehow used to dismiss what they're actually talking about, which is sexual assault, which is not, which is that, you know, they bring up all the stuff that's not relevant - was she wearing a short skirt? Now, we're obviously not talking about sexual assault in this case, we're talking about a divorce case, which is an entirely different kind of victimhood. But it still, I think, highlights this idea that public narratives, they just don't take into account the complexity of real life. You're either the good guy or the bad guy, it's very black and white, and PR teams really do try and feed into this.
Lisa 21:52
And I actually think this became really obvious in the Heard versus Depp case. It was more about, I felt, the court of public opinion, more than just the legal case. And I mean, there was a vast amount of content being shared on platforms like Twitter, YouTube, and Tiktok, where people were scrutinising and discussing every available piece of public information to determine who they believed was the true victim. And both sides accused each other of trying to play the victim and win the public support.
Sarah 22:22
Yeah, and you know, whoever you believe or don't believe in that case, because that's, I mean, that's not the point of this episode. It really does show how much public perception and controlling the narrative was important and still is important in these cases. And it massively impacted both of their careers. So you get to see, you know, on that level, how important it is,
Lisa 22:44
It really did. A big part of this PR battle seems to be who's to blame and who's the victim? Why do you think this plays out in relationships and breakups? And why are we so fascinated by them?
Sarah 23:00
So in terms of celebrity breakups, there was a great quote that I found by someone called Kennedy on the Mail Online and it said, “when young beautiful starlets marry handsome boyband hunks, we yearn for every detail of their fanciful fairytale, sipping the sweet champagne of their effortlessly sexy story. When they inevitably divorce we gorge on their misery, ravenous for tawdry topics and dirty laundry, desperate to apportion blame, to say we saw it coming from the start, to appoint a victor and villain in the sordid split saga”. And firstly, just for celebrity relationships in general, I think people do see them as a great distraction from their lives and their worries. But there's also this feeling that somehow celebrity relationships must be much bigger and more exciting, more epic than our normal lives. And we want to then live through them. So it makes me think of the Richard Burton and Elizabeth Taylor mythology, these these sort of movie star romances that we can only dream of. But also with the breakups, there's a secret schadenfreude, their lives are so amazing, it's unfair, that they have so much and we have so little, they've got the money, fame, beauty, perfect lives. So when we hear that it's all gone wrong. It feels that in some areas of life, we're doing better than they are, that we're somehow winning. And that makes us feel better about our lives. But there's also the aspect of just relationship breakups in general, not just celebrity ones, this idea that there's always a winner and a loser. And as that previous quote described, a victor and a villain.
Lisa 24:32
Yeah, and then I was thinking you've got this whole concept around, and I think there's a show around it called the Revenge Body where people have a makeover to show their ex what they're missing.
Sarah 24:42
Yeah, I've heard about it but I haven't seen it. I mean, it makes sense. No one wants to feel rejected. And this is even more pronounced if the other person was the one that broke up with you. You know, I saw one comment on Elite Daily, which said, “half of the hardship with breakups, whether you did it or not, is realising that now there is someone out there who doesn't want you, and rejection stings”. And I think that's particularly so because with a rejection, we often automatically frame it as, oh, I've been rejected because there's something wrong with me. It's not just that this didn't work out, but we take it as a personal attack on who we are. And as an extension of that we then frame breakups as having winners or losers. So I saw a response in Instyle to, there was a reader question asking for advice after feeling like they lost the breakup. And it said, “so despite our desire to win the breakup, keeping score will only ever leave you feeling like a loser because no one wins when people are hurt and relationships end.” And I have to say, I do agree with that. I think it's quite unhealthy, trying to turn it into a competition because it's essentially all about hurt feelings.
Lisa 25:54
Yeah. And it actually does remind me of a comment that Kevin Costner said when he was stopped by reporters outside the courthouse last week. When they asked him what was going on, he said, “This is a horrible place to be, but this is where we're at. We're talking about somebody I love on the other side, I just can't”. It also feels like there's often a double standard when it comes to relationship winners. And I feel like we're going over the same sort of territory we discussed in our sort of the right kind of wrong woman episode about Jennifer Aniston and Alice Evans, Jamie Wells said in Mamamia, “after Brad Pitt split from Jennifer Aniston, Brad became one half of Hollywood's most powerful couple. And the media would have had you believe poor Jen spent two years hysterically throwing chocolates at the television, a la Elle Woods in Legally Blonde. At the same time, George Clooney has been single, on and off for decades. But was he considered desperate and unlucky in love? Of course, not. He was people's most eligible bachelor 27 years in a row”. I mean, 27 years is a lot.
Sarah 26:56
But I just I have to say, I absolutely love this, this image of her just throwing chocolates directly at the television. I mean, that's a brilliant description. But another part of this, I think, is that especially in Western society, we're really brought up to look for someone to blame. So if something goes wrong, someone has to be responsible, someone has to be punished. And research reported in the Journal of Experimental Psychology actually revealed that people credit others far more often for negative events. So what we call blaming than they do for positive events. And some psychologists believe that the blame game is what we do to avoid the difficult feelings that accompany negative events. So there was a question on Quora. Someone asked “after a breakup why does one person blame the other?” And one of the answers was, “because it's easier to blame something on someone else, rather than self respecting, and figuring out what we did wrong in the relationship, and what we can do better in our future relationships”. And I'll just say, for me personally, guilt as an emotion is probably one of the most uncomfortable emotions and is really not a nice thing to feel, especially when we're trained to view things in those terms. So at school, we're punished when we do something deemed wrong. We're trained to feel guilty. I also think a final thing is that we really like to have answers, it really doesn't feel great when we feel like someone else has failed us. But subconsciously, you could argue that it's more comfortable than accepting that sometimes things don't work out how we want. And that there's actually nothing we can do about that, because that leaves us feeling powerless. And that's a really scary feeling to have.
Lisa 28:35
It is, which then makes sense of wanting to be the victim, you get to avoid the blame, you get the support and the sympathy. But it does feel like we've moved into the era of victimhood, which in itself can be quite disempowering. So to sum up, if we sort of take a deeper psychological approach into why Joe Jonas is doing this, you know, what's at the bottom of it? Is it fear, fear of losing his fan base? And why is sort of Sophie Turner staying so quiet?
Sarah 29:07
Well, I think in cases of divorces with kids, particularly in an international couple, the stakes are really high, especially when you take into account the idea of custody. And that could equally motivate one person to preemptively strike in the PR war, if they think that's going to be the best way to protect themselves. And in the other direction, you could also have someone who's really worrying about saying the wrong thing, so they end up saying nothing at all. And like you said, it's both motivated by fear. So Kennedy on the MailOnline said, “Sophie's fear of losing her children in a protracted international custody battle must be palpable. It's every mother's worst nightmare, next to being publicly dragged through a gossip bog while your hirsute ex emerges fresher than a douche commercial”.
Lisa 29:53
So well said. That's brilliant, because like, in a best case scenario, even if they get 5050 custody, it must be incredibly hard adjusting to seeing your children half the time when you've been around them full time. And you've all been in one home together.
Sarah 30:09
Yeah, it must be very hard. I can't even imagine to be honest. So I do think it makes sense that Turner would remain quiet. And especially if you look at her history. So she's spoken out before about her mental health. She's talked about struggles with depression, and an eating disorder. And she's very much said social media has been a big factor in this. So she said, “I've noticed that social media makes me incredibly anxious. And it's something I tried to distance myself from”. So she's not really going to be oversharing on social media. And she's also spoken publicly about keeping her kids out of the public eye, and she blasted the paparazzi for taking shots of them in 2021. She said,” she is my daughter, she has not asked for this life to be photographed. It's fucking creepy that grown old men are taking pictures of a baby without their permission. I'm sickened. I'm disgusted. And I'm respectfully asking everyone to stop following us around and stop trying to take pictures of our daughter, and especially printing them.” And just another thing is, we actually don't know if there are any NDAs or non-disclosure agreements at play. So we don't know if people can or can't speak based on previous contracts. And they come in to play quite a lot with celebrity relationships, I think. But at the moment, I would definitely say that it is the best approach for her to take a dignified silence and not rush into anything. Because it doesn't just affect her, but it affects the kids as well.
Lisa 31:38
Yeah, it's a good point. And actually, when I'm thinking about it, we don't actually know if Jonas' approach it came from him or he actually came from his team. And someone said on the Mail Online, “the Jonas Brothers are not just a family, there are a brand and a brand that they will want to protect. But I just hope they don't do it at any cost”. And you know, Sarah, because you're a huge fan.
Sarah 31:58
Oh, yeah. They’re at the top of my playlist?
Lisa 32:01
Yeah. They're currently on tour and tours bring in a lot of money. As we know with Beyonce and Taylor Swift. We keep hearing about their billion dollar tours. I don't know if the Jonas Brothers are making a billion dollars on their tour, but they bring in a lot of money. And it seems that the Jonas Brothers maybe have a fan base built on conservative Christians. That's just speculation, just from what we know their history is. So for them, you can't be seen to be divorcing lightly. You're abandoning your family. So it's important to sort of control this narrative quite early on, and maybe potentially paint themselves as the victim. And it's actually the wife who's immoral and effectively broken up the family. But as we've seen, this really hasn't worked this time.
Sarah
No, it hasn't.
Lisa
So, Sarah, what are your final thoughts?
Sarah 32:46
Well, I mean, we've talked about breakups and taking sides before in our Alice Evans and Jennifer Aniston episode. And it definitely seems to be human nature to want to take sides and project all our own woundings about relationships onto celebrity divorces, and we've just had a run of breakups this year. So there are even more opportunities to do that than ever before. I think what's been interesting in this case with Jonas and Turner is it's not just the knee jerk reaction of the media you know, when they bought into the Jonas camps narrative of playing the victim, and then jumped straight to mum shaming because we've seen that so many times before, you know, the go to is mum shaming. But the part that has been interesting is that so many people have actually called it out and rejected this narrative this time, which I feel like it's quite a new thing. As Raven Smith in Vogue wrote “The Internet has done me proud this week, seeing the misogynistic undertones of Jonas's reported allegations a mile out”. You know, when, as you said, Lisa, people are definitely much more aware these days of how the media and the PR machine works. They're not anywhere near as gullible as they used to be. And the fact that so many people have called out these double standards, and they have come to Turner's defence, it really makes me hopeful for society. But ultimately, this is a young family with two really small children in the mix. And I'm just hoping that the Jonas camp realise that they've made a mistake in their PR approach, and hopefully that they'll back off and try to work it out as amicably as possible, because at the end of the day, regardless of what hurt feelings are involved, they're actually going to be connected for the rest of their lives because they've got kids together. So let's just hope they find a way to resolve this with as little upset to the kids as possible.
Lisa 34:35
Yeah, I really do too. Thank you for listening today. We hope you've enjoyed this episode.
Sarah 34:42
We do and we will see you next week with our new mini.
Lisa 34:47
Thank you to our lovely producer Emily. If you enjoyed today's episode, please don't forget to leave a review and subscribe. It really does help us in reaching more people. You can also follow us on Instagram. Our handle is @s2tcpodcast. You can find out more about the show, get behind the scenes, come and say hello. Until then see you next time.
Sarah 35:07
This podcast has been produced by Emily Crosby media