Episode 13.
And we're back! This week, we're exploring the increasingly blurred lines between entertainment and porn, diving into the critical reactions surrounding HBO's show, "The Idol," and the controversial social media app, OnlyFans.
The Idol, featuring Lily Rose Depp and The Weeknd, and directed by Sam Levinson, has been promoted by HBO as a "revelatory take on the cult of the music industry." Yet all the internet is talking about is that the show seems to perpetuate a toxic male fantasy, raising questions about the true motivations of HBO and the creators. Is it genuine artistic expression or blatant sexual exploitation of women?
Meanwhile, the online gossip surrounding models and actresses funding their lifestyles through OnlyFans adds to the ongoing debate: When does entertainment cross the line into porn?
Join us as we navigate erotic thrillers, bad acting, cult classics and the real world impact of screen and digital sex.
P.S. If you love 90s erotic films or are curious about this era, we highly recommend checking out the podcast "You Must Remember This" and specifically the "Erotic 90s" season. It was a brilliant resource during our research for this episode: http://www.youmustrememberthispodcast.com/
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This series is produced by Emily Crosby Media.
Click here for the full transcript
SPEAKERS
Lisa, Sarah
Lisa 00:06
It's a sleaze fest. The screenplay is the fevered product of a very limited imagination brought to a high gloss and a slick, expensive soap opera. It contains so much nudity that the sexy parts are when the girls put on their clothes.
Sarah 00:19
It's a prime example of Hollywood's worst tendencies. It's exploitative, voyeuristic and ultimately empty.
Lisa 00:26
So no, we're not talking about the idol but we're talking about the critics reviews of 1992’s Basic Instinct and 1995’s Ahowgirls Basic Instinct was a star making turn for Sharon Stone, who famously uncrossed her legs the camera, revealing she had no knickers on. However, when Elizabeth Berkley bared all in showgirls, it was considered a career ruining move for the young actress.
Sarah 00:49
With backlash to HBO as the idol and celebrities turning to the app OnlyFans to directly monetize their sexuality. In today's episode, we're going to be asking, Are we finally breaking down the stigma associated with selling sex and showing explicit content? Are women finally in control of their sexuality? And more importantly, is this newfound acceptance healthy for society?
The phrase sex sells has been around since the 1870s when pearl tobacco used an image of a naked maiden on their cigarette package, leading to an immediate rise in sales. And ever since then, advertising and media have used sex, particularly women's sexualized bodies to attract sales and an audience. The depiction of sex and sexuality I mean, it's often being used on screen both to shock titillate and instigate important discussions around sexuality, and HBO have recently released the idol which they themselves described as a subversive, revelatory take on the cult of the music industry. The cast is actually led by Lily Rose Depp, who's the daughter of Johnny Depp and Vanessa Paradis, who we actually talked about a little bit in the first episode on nepo-babies.
Sarah 01:57
She stars as this sort of Britney Spears esque popstar called Jocelyn and her last tour was derailed after she had a nervous breakdown following the death of her mother. She meets and strikes up an unhealthy relationship with a male character called Tedros, who's played by a music superstar, the Weeknd, and his real name is actually Abel Tesfaye. For the sake of making it easy, we're just going call him the Weeknd during the episode. I mean, he plays this slimy modern day cult leader and it's slightly in the style of Scientology and NXIVM. The original director Amy Seimetz, her initial approach on the project was that of a troubled starlet falling victim to a predatory industry figure and fighting to reclaim her own agency. And there's been some claims that the story might have been inspired by the situation that Britney Spears found herself in during her mental health crisis, and particularly around the mysterious associate Sam Lufti, who attached himself to and even claimed to be her manager during this period. And many believe he was actually the catalyst of her downfall. Her mother Lynn Spears claimed that Lufti essentially moved into Britney’s home and had purported to take control of her life. Her home and her finances, and Spears alleged that Lufti took control of her medication, cut her phone lines and controlled and manipulated her. They even believe that he may have intentionally drugged and confused her and a three year restraining order was granted against him in 2009. So we have a kind of flavour of where the show may be going. It was developed and directed by Sam Levinson, who's the guy behind Euphoria along with the Weeknd and reserve for him and the first episode was released on June 4th and it was in their primetime Sunday night slot to replace Succession that's just finished. Have you ever seen Euphoria?
Lisa 03:49
No, I haven't and like I said in our Nepo Babies episode I you know, I heard a lot about it and want to watch it. I don't really feel like I'm in their target audience.
Sarah 03:59
No, I mean, I can definitely relate to that because the sort of sex drugs drinking parties, they made absolutely no appearances in my teen years. So I related just far more to the Drew Barrymore movie never been kissed, that would be more my speed.
Lisa 04:15
And that is so funny because I was obsessed with this film with Drew Barrymore called Poison Ivy, and she plays more like a teen seductress, and a bit of a femme fatale. Apparently, she was only 17 When she made that film. So we're sort of on opposite sides of the spectrum here, Sarah.
Sarah 04:31
Definitely. In terms of The Idol ever since it was announced, HBO has really leaned into the controversy. And they've actually been marketing it as the sleaziest love story in Hollywood, which, again, is, you know, to me a bit of an oxymoron because it's not really a love story. sleazy. Is it? I mean, yeah, you know, but comments in reaction to the early trailers. Some of them were great. Another entertainment show about exploiting young women. Yeah, and there was another comment that said, count me out. I have absolutely no interest in rewarding the producers or HBO, for trying to profit off of their self described sleazy love story. Worse if the descriptions of the plot are true, never underestimate the twisted, cruel devolutionary aims of patriarchy, portraying women simultaneously as irresistible, yet as objects to be controlled and abused. How else can one interpret “so rapey I kind of liked that about him”. Wow, shame on HBO.
Lisa 05:28
Yeah. And you know, this is not exactly surprising. HBO you know, they've become synonymous with adult sort of orientated content, you know, thinking Sex and City, The Sopranos, Game of Thrones.
Sarah 05:39
And don't forget my personal favourite True Blood, which I absolutely loved.
Lisa 05:44
I was obsessed with that show.
Sarah 05:46
I think HBO actually got more controversy than perhaps they were even expecting when events behind the scenes of The Idol started to make headlines even before it was released. So Rolling Stone published an expose on the 1st of March quoting 13 sources who had revealed that the production had gone wildly, disgustingly off the rails. So it was originally intended to be a sort of satire of the music industry. And then they claimed that it devolved into what one source called “sexual torture porn” after the sudden exit of its female director, Amy Seimetz, had previously directed the girlfriend experience. And I think, Lisa, you've watched the Girlfriend Experience, haven't you?
Lisa 06:23
I have I watched season one, not the new seasons. And I did find it really intriguing. And it's so hard to read in a way that I could not stop watching it.
Sarah 06:32
Yeah, I mean, I remember reading that Isaac Feldberg. He described it as a mesmerizingly brilliant series about fantasies of control and women negotiating their power in a world of possessive men. So it's sort of sounds like something I might find interesting, although I haven't seen it. But according to Deadline, Seimetz had been forced out because the show's co creator and co star the Weeknd wanted to see less of a so-called female perspective; he's actually denied this. And then it's sort of been suggested that actually, according to them, the original cut of the show was reportedly not as complex as the Weeknd and Sam Levinson had hoped, and the dynamic between the cult figure character Tadros and Jocelyn was not as developed as they wanted. But I mean, they scrapped this after having already filmed 80% of the show already. And the existing content was estimated to have cost 54 to $75 million. Wow, in order to rewrite and reshoot the entire thing with Levinson taking over as the director. So that's, I mean, that's a big call,
Lisa 07:33
oh, my gosh, I'm actually really surprised the producers agreed to this because that is a lot of money to scrap, it almost makes you think what had been filmed that they thought maybe it wouldn't be commercially exciting enough, or if and this is entirely guessing if they thought there was too much of a female perspective is as they think the female perspective doesn't sell somehow. Which is surprising because the girlfriend experience was successful, critically and commercially.
Sarah 07:57
Yeah, I mean, and this whole idea that it's become torture porn. One production member explains of Levinson's version, it was like “any rape fantasy that any toxic man would have” in the show. And then the woman comes back for more because it makes her music better.
Lisa 08:12
Okay, so in a way, everyone was being really primed to watch this show. You know, they built a lot of buzz on the controversy. And in a way, even if it was negative, and people were expecting to hate it, the buzz meant a lot of people were going to watch it just to see how shocking it really was. Yeah. And in response to the Rolling Stone article, Levinson said, when my wife read me the article, I looked at her and said, I think we're about to have the biggest show of the summer. We know that we're making a show that's provocative. And then also these responses on Reddit. “It looks like a story about a depraved drug fueled degenerates that border on pornography. So yeah, I'm absolutely watching”. “How is it a travesty if it hasn't even come out yet? To each their own? But I prefer to give something a chance before passing judgement”?
Sarah 08:56
Yeah, I mean, there is a good point about that. And I have to be honest, you know, if we weren't doing this episode, I probably wouldn't be watching it myself. Maybe 10 to 20 years ago, I might have thought oh, that's that's exciting. That's shocking. Let's have a look. But, you know, it doesn't really appeal to me, in and of itself. So yeah,
Lisa 09:17
Well, I think I'm in one of those category of watchers where it's just too hard to ignore. I had to see what all the fuss was about. What's interesting is that the Weeknd posted on his Instagram, that the premiere episode of the idol surpassed 3.6 million viewers, which HBO says outpaces the series premieres for both White Lotus and Euphoria, but his posts are getting quite a backlash. And here's some of the comments. The top comment was” doesn't mean it's good”, “terrible move during the show, making yourself looking creepy as fuck”. And another one “I'm convinced people are watching this because of the controversy around it”.
Sarah 09:50
Yeah, and I mean, and since its release, most of the reviews have been at best mixed but mostly negative. So even though the show was met with a five minute standing ovation at the Cannes Film Festival. Critics pan the show for it sleaziness.
Lisa 10:06
Can I just say it seems that every show in Cannes is met with a five minute standing ovation nowadays? I mean, I read that all the time. And I guess it depends on who's in the room. Right. And I liked what guy lodge said in The Guardian. You know, he said about Cannes and the standing ovations. He said, just as you wouldn't refuse to toast a couple, as a guest at their wedding festival, etiquette simply dictates that you have to be upstanding and clap handing for any filmmaker or star on their big night.
Sarah 10:32
Yeah, I mean, and despite that, they've got 26% rating on Rotten Tomatoes from critics and Twitter reactions to the show range from it's a “Pornhub homepage odyssey”, to the “TV version of clickbait”.
Lisa 10:45
So what do you think of it?
Sarah 10:46
Well, I have to say, when I watched the first episode, the biggest thing that jumped out was It was basically really boring. And yes, she does wear tiny, sexualized outfits. And yes, there was over sexualized choreography and references, but the dialogue and the characterization meant I felt absolutely no connection to the show, the characters or the story. And I'm not the only one in a GQ article, they said, “it's hard to imagine anything as unsexy as what we're told to believe is the most radical boundary pushing TV sex ever.”
Lisa 11:17
Yeah, and I think I'm on the same page as you I mean, and also a lot of the commentators out there, I just didn't find it sexy. I suppose. For me, I like the insider view of you of the music industry. And sort of like seeing the glamour of a pop stars life. I think that's about it. Yeah.
Sarah 11:32
I mean, it was just the dialogue was so cringy and there were these painfully meta coversations between the execs who were supposedly satirising the music industry, but the dialogue was what no actual person would ever say. So I mean, the New York Times describes the scene of when a young-ish creative director expresses qualms about romanticising mental illness and abrasive Generation X record executive played by Jane Adams - chides out of touch college educated internet people who won't let the public enjoy sex drugs and hot girls. And you know, when I was watching it, I just imagined that the creators are sitting there congratulating themselves on how clever and philosophical they were in having these conversations. But I think if you have to do that, then you know and you know, it's not as clever as it thinks, you know, you're being hit over the head with it, so to speak. There were I will I will say there was some better bits in the second episode, particularly when they were filming the music video, and Depp's character was sort of having an emotional breakdown. You actually sort of felt sorry for her in that moment. And you could see she was trapped within this machine of the music industry that was so uncaring. But as soon as the Weeknd character comes back in I mean, I just found it tedious, mainly because there was just no chemistry or charisma. Yeah. And this is a man that's a character who's supposed to be able to bring people under a spell, including a world famous pop star, but he seems to have no presence. And you just think why would anyone follow him anywhere? I mean, it really makes me think of the movie Dangerous Liaisons and then the teen remake Cruel Intentions because the characters that were played by John Malkovich and Ryan Phillipe, now really both their ultimately unpleasant and untrustworthy characters. And so were the female counterparts who were played by Glenn Close and Sarah Michelle Gellar. But they're all charismatic enough that you can understand why someone would fall under their spell, even though they had a reputation even though their behaviour was bad. It sort of it was you could understand that, but not so much in the idol. So I mean, how about you?
Lisa 13:35
I agree, and it's sort of like when you think of how Kim Bassinger fell under the spell of Mickey Rourke and nine and a half weeks, I kind of got it, you know, he was so magnetic. But I'm not getting that from the Weeknd. And you know, but I do think that Lily Rose is acting her socks off. I mean, if that's not the wrong way to put it. And I agree with you on that scene where she's making the music video really felt for her. But actually, the weird thing is I'm actually finding the Weeknd. Creepy, and I'm sort of reevaluating his music and you know, I’ve found it very yearning and sexy his sort of songs. But now I'm like, it's got a bit of a different sort of tone to it now. But I think we can both agree that it's been overwhelmingly criticised for being sleazy and exploitative. And, you know, in the New York Times said, “The Idol seems less like a commentary on today's music scene than like a wish to return to a period when no one complained about rape culture or toxic masculinity. For example, there's a scene where Justin's assistant describes Tetris as so rapey and Jocelyn replies, yeah, I kind of liked that about him”.
Sarah 14:35
Yeah, I mean, no. I can understand dangerous being sexy right, but rapey actually raping. I mean, it really feels like it's buying into this, this idea of a male fantasy that most women fantasise about being raped. And I think the idea of what is supposed to be essentially a female protagonist story, but being told now from a male perspective, is where most of the problems come in, I probably would have been more interested in seeing the original version that had been made with a female director. And maybe there would have been more space for it bringing up some interesting conversations around female sexuality. But in the current version, particularly because all the creators and the director and etc are male, it does just feel fairly exploitative as a result.
Lisa 15:23
And that does seem to be the predominant view coming out in the comments. You know, on the Daily Mail, people were saying <”she's being used and tooled for tits and ass, sadly the poor thing is so young and dumb. She thinks it's art. When will these young, vulnerable women realise that just the flavour of the month, she will look back on this and feel shame and disgust”. Depp has defended the nudity by saying, we also think that the occasional baring of the character physically mirrors the baring that we get to see emotionally in her.
Sarah 15:51
Well maybe I'm being too practical in my thinking. But you know, in the first episode, she comes out for a dance practice and, and that's the important part, it's a dance practice, not a performance where you might wear outfits that are, you know, for a specific reason. But she's wearing a tiny lycra miniskirt, hot pants combo, and like her bikini top that is so small, that it's the same size as nipple pasties that are connected by a string. And all I could think is that, you know, even if you were super comfortable in your body, and you really like to show it off, if you were doing a dance practice in that top, I mean, how does it stay in place? It just looked so annoying. Yeah, I actually thought, you know, it would have just been easier for her to do with topless that looked more irritating, and unrealistic. And you know, there were some online comments where they said her clothes look so uncomfortable. And another it looks like the wardrobe team went into the kids section of Walmart and got her bathing suit tops for a six year old.
Lisa 16:47
Oh my gosh, that's too funny. I really appreciate that comment. Like I said to you I don't think I've ever seen such tiny clothes. And you know, it really makes me think it really wouldn't work for anything over an A cup would be flying everywhere. But I am a bit fascinated by her wardrobe. I have to say let's see what they come up with next week. But let's talk about another exploitative element, which is the Britney Spears connection that you mentioned earlier, the trailer for the idol was set to the Britney song Gimme More. In the first episode, there was a character playing a Vanity Fair reporter who says the choreography is like a homage to Britney, to which Jocelyn publicist responds in typical PR style. I think what Britney and Jocelyn have gone through is really unique, but ultimately universal, you know, look at what she's overcome. You know, the press has been brutal, but Britney as well, people count them out. And this is Jocelyn saying, I will not be written off.
Sarah 17:38
However, the production has denied that the show is based on Britney with Levinson saying we're not telling anyone else's story. But you could say that even the positioning with references to Britney, they know that this is going to bring up speculation around this as a story. I would argue that you could say they're essentially exploiting Britney, just by positioning it as such, and having those similarities that they know is going to, you know, bring up a lot of speculation. Even if they deny similarities, they know that this is going to happen. So it feels like using someone who's already been exploited many times over. And that's assuming, of course that she's not associated with the production in any way, or that she did give her actual permission behind the scenes.
Lisa 18:25
I suppose the biggest question debate that we have to look at is how can you differentiate between art that is supposedly demonstrating a world that is sleazy and commentating on that, or being critical of that, and something that is essentially sleazy, exploitive and gratuitous in itself?
Sarah 18:41
I think that's a really hard one to put into words. But I think there are a few things with The Idol that does raise some doubts about it. So I mean, let's just start with how we can gauge gratuitousness. It's so hard to quantify what would count as gratuitous and all and it's entirely subjective. However, I think some of the questions to ask are: was the scene or the nudity needed to make the point to enhance the character or the story? And so you know, in this case, I think of Requiem for a Dream, which is, I think one of the best movies ever, not necessarily enjoyable or easy watching very good. And the final scene it depicts the debasement that drug abuse brings the characters down to so for Jennifer Connelly's character, it's an abusive and it's a graphic live sex show put on in front of a group of braying men in exchange for drugs. It's super graphic, but it really makes its point it's not about turning the audience on but showing how debasing addiction can become. And they only needed that one scene to make the point. And at the same time, it's undercut with similarly outcomes for all the other main characters, you know, so in that case, if they'd done more than one scene every 20 minutes similar to that, I would have said it was gratuitous because they can make that point with a single shocking scene. But then alternatively, I'd say that in Lars Von Trier’s nymphomaniac. that has multiple sex scenes. And but you could argue that the amount of sex scenes are potentially needed to show the repetitive and the sort of unrelenting nature of sex addiction. And so because it's making a different point, it has a different threshold for what is gratuitous. So it really depends on the context and the point, so to speak.
Lisa 20:21
I mean, there's only been two episodes of The Idol so far. But I'm not sure really, if the repeated nudity is necessarily making any new points. It seems more like a deliberate aesthetic to make the show sexy and controversial. It's very hard, isn't it to make a full judgement, as we don't know how it's going to sort of progress or where it's leading. And maybe in hindsight, it will all make sense. And actually, the Weeknd has urged fans to watch the entire show before passing judgement. He said, “When I first started making music, it was the exact same thing. It was provocative, and I knew it was going to be tough for people. And a lot of people didn't like it, not to compare it. But I feel this is kind of like that, again, this is not going to be for everybody. And that's fine. We're not politicians”. Which are interesting to compare himself to.
Sarah 21:07
Yeah, yeah. I mean, I do think we do have to make that disclaimer. And I think there's room to possibly do an update once the entire series has been released. But I do think it's an interesting point, because on one hand, you do need all the information to make a judgement. On the other hand, it conveniently convinces everyone to watch the whole thing. And they get the numbers regardless of if you come to the judgement that it was rubbish in the end. So you know, it seems like a good way to get people to watch. I also think the second thing to look at is the discrepancy between how the male and the female characters are treated. So the level of agency of the characters and what you might call the director's gaze so you know, in the sex scenes between depth and the Weeknds, characters, it's very one sided in the nudity. And she's always on the receiving end as the object so GQ, they talked about this and they said “that the episodes climactic scene metaphorically speaking, of course, because no one comes in the show. ends post-coital with depth topless and test phase still buttoned up to the neck is all the proof that Levinson and The Weeknd are simply just two children in a trench coat. To them sex is as follows - a woman gets so turned on because a man exists, then something messy and weird happens in the middle. We won't say what it is, but trust us we've definitely had sex before. And then finally, when it's all over, she lets them know that was the best time she's ever had”.
Lisa 22:29
This is just so genius. I don't think I can watch episode three. Now I've read that. Yes, it feels like she's just like this doll like character without any agency who exists for everyone else's pleasure. And if you think of True Blood there were plenty of nude scenes with the male actors, you know, thinking of Alexander Skarsgard, and Ryan Kwantan. So it felt like there was an equal objectification going on, if that's, you know, what we want to call it?
Sarah 22:55
Yeah, I agree with that and I think in terms of agency, it's strange because one of my favourite films is Secretary which follows the development of a BDSM relationship between a secretary played by Maggie Gyllenhaall, who has a history of self harm, and a buttoned up James Spader as her lawyer boss. But the difference is that, despite Gyllenhaal's character being vulnerable in many, many senses, she has a real strong sense of agency. And ultimately, I would say that she makes the breakthrough in their battle of wills. There's also a chemistry between the two that really builds up a very strong connection. And so the spanking, it's just an external expression of the layer dynamic that's already there. It's actually a very sweet story, which is a weird thing to say about a BDSM relationship. But it is incredibly sweet in my mind.
Lisa 23:41
So yeah, the makers have read all this reaction, they come out in defence of the idol, and the depiction of sexuality. At the series premiere in Cannes. Levinson said, “We live in a very sexualized world, especially in the States. And I think the influence of pornography is really strong in terms of the psyche of, you know, I think young people in the States, we see this in pop music and how it sort of reflects the underbelly of the internet. I think it's very true to what most pop stars are doing these days”. And then on Instagram, someone came to their defence, “other HBO shows have been very graphic and disturbing, why they hate?” and then someone else responded, “because they had better characters, cinematography, soundtrack and plot”.
Sarah 24:21
Yeah, I mean, that does make a difference. And the Weeknd is basically said that they're just following the steps of 90s erotica, he said, There's nothing sexy about it, when we use Basic Instinct as a reference. We're using filmmaker Paul Verhoeven, who is the king of 90 satire thriller. Yes, there's moments of sexiness films, but there are other moments that are very cheesy and hilarious. This reference to Basic Instinct, Jocelyn and her friend are actually watching Basic Instinct in one scene, and Lily Rose said she took inspiration for her character from Sharon Stone's character, and Sharon Stone herself even waded into the controversy by speaking out in defence of them. Saying “I just watched the first two episodes of The Idol Lily, Rose Depp and the Weeknd or so sure footed”. I mean, Lisa, you're kind of a fan of 90s erotica, why don't you just put this in in context a little bit.
Lisa 25:12
I really think the impact of this era has lingered in ways I didn't really appreciate until we started researching this episode. For example, I didn't really appreciate the backlash against so much of the sexual content back then, you know, and it's not that dissimilar to to sort of the outrage we're seeing with The Idol. So Madonna released her trilogy of sex projects in the early 90s. Starting with erotica, theh her Sex Book and her movie Body of Evidence. And you know, when Body of Evidence came out in 1993, it was subject to a huge backlash. And despite Madonna only being the actress in the film, people were quick to blame her for the failure and even seem to take pleasure in her failure. And you know, there was this very mean review in the New York Magazine, David Denby said “Madonna also makes an attempt to merge her persona were Marlene Dietrich's, you know something she's done for a while, including in the Vogue video. The essence of Dietrich's glamour was the imagined perfection of what she withheld. The result was that she was treated as a sex goddess. A pop star can be overexposed, but a movie star cannot”. Which is interesting as Sharon Stone’s leg crossing scene in Basic Instinct, and giving a glimpse of a vagina was her breakthrough moment to becoming a superstar.
26:20
And I think, you know, we talked about Elizabeth Berkley and Showgirls, and she probably thought when she signed on to that, that she was going to have a similar career like Sharon Stone, and it effectively sort of ended her career.
Sarah
Then it's so hard to judge what the differences were, there's that fine line of what's too much and what's groundbreaking. I do think sometimes quality of performance comes in. Also, you know, it's a co creation, isn't it? So, you know, you've got the script, you've got all the different elements and if some of the elements are offered doesn't matter how good of a poem what to do, because it'll come across bad, you know?
Lisa 26:55
Yeah. So bad. It's good, or Yeah,
Sarah 26:58
That's where the cult classic comes in. Yeah,
Lisa 27:00
Basic Instinct came out in 1992. And at the time, it was absolutely a phenomenon. It created this real watershed moment in culture. They've never had such a sexually explicit film in the cinema before, well mainstream cinema. And you know, Sharon Stone, you know, plays this incredibly strong and sexy, don't give a fuck character of Catherine Tramell. And she basically had the agency of a man. The feminist, Camille Paglia called her a “bitch goddess” and praised the film for subverting the usual fate of femme fatales. You know, they usually got killed off for being bad or too sexual. And, you know, sort of in contrast, you've got Lily Rose Depp, who's playing this sort of fragile waif, Jocelyn, you know, she's preyed on by this controlling man, and they sort of play up danger. Whereas I felt in Basic Instinct, there was a real sense of danger that Michael Douglas could die during sex, so yeah, it made it thrilling.
Sarah 27:48
Yeah, you know, I agree that the film has some of the same sort of smarmy misogyny that's at play in The Idol. It had alot of sex scenes in it, and nudity on Stone’s part. And there was some very overtop thrashing about, which The Weeknd said last week was what they were going for in The Idol. But it was meant to be camp. So I think there's a whole different element there.
Lisa 28:10
But do you remember, because it made me think of the Red Shoe Diaries?
Sarah 28:14
I do, actually, you know, because it had David Duchovny narrating it, I think,
Lisa 28:19
Yes, it was pre X Files fame. And so yeah, I think what's interesting is that you got to think that in the 90s, you know, or late 80s, mainstream TV in America couldn't show that much sex. So when the cable channels came along, like HBO and Showtime, they really made it all about sex, their content. So they invested heavily in it. I mean, Showtime in the 90s had their Zalman King era, where King known for his sexually charged films like nine half weeks, two moons junction and wild orchid, he wanted to bridge the gap between what he called R rated films and pure pornography, or I think it became known really a softcore. One of his creations was Red Shoe Diaries, and each episode presented a different story revolving around a fictional woman's confessions or fantasies. These often involve sexual encounters with strangers with no strings attached. The fantasies were meant to be from the woman's perspective and featured a very specific type of man, one who engaged in games of submission, corrosion and risk.
Sarah 29:17
I mean, that reallyis a recurring theme, isn't it? It's a professional, uptight woman who learns to let go of her inhibitions and submits to a dominant male figure, you know, 50 Shades of Grey, essentially. Yeah. But, you know, this might be the fantasy of some women and that's totally fine. But it does reinforce the male fantasy that women are merely they're merely pretend to have independence and agency but they're all secretly yearning to be submissive to a man.
Lisa 29:39
Exactly. And you see this over and over again in erotic thrillers. So I mean, HBO really got into the adult entertainment game and you know, shows like taxicab confessions. You know, honestly, it's really understandable why there is an immense popularity, about consuming this type of content in the privacy of our own home.
Sarah 29:56
Then we have 1996 with the explosion of Internet porn, which was partly fueled by the release of Pamela Anderson and Tommy Lee's sex tape. And it marked a significant shift in the accessibility and availability of explicit material. So I think this content then started to die out.
Lisa 30:12
Yes, it did. And I think HBO did find great success with the erotic content and adult entertainment, you know, it became a cornerstone, I think of there programming strategy. But interestingly, when I was researching this episode in 2019, HBO made the decision to remove all adult entertainment content. In a press release, they stated “in recent years, HBO has been phasing out its late night adult programming. While we're expanding our offerings with other original programmes. There has been limited demand for this type of adult content, possibly because it's readily available elsewhere”. And I do understand they they don't want to be perceived as like a porn channel, and more artistic, but they are still providing sex under the banner of sort of original programming, for example, like we said, with Euphoria, and now you have The Idol. You could argue is not that different from a Zalman King production, where all the women, even powerful women really only want to be submissive and controlled. And there's a lot of nudity on their part.
Lisa: What is the difference between art erotica and pornography?
Sarah 31:15
There are very many definitions for all those terms. And I think it's really highly subjective in nature. So not everyone agrees on it. But when the Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart was asked to describe his test for obscenity in 1964, he responded, !I know it when I see it”, which, you know, isn't exactly clarifying things. But I sort of get what he's, I understand what he's getting at. Yeah. Because you know, it's all about the context. And Quora when this question was posed, some of the answers were, “erotica depicts two human beings having sex, porn depicts two sets of genitals shoved together”. And I think that's quite good, it's sort of like it distills it down. And then it also said, “erotica has scenes with silk sheets candles, a gentle wind blowing through the curtains and the sound of a fireplace”.
In an essay on Psychology Today, “besides pornography has been principally a money making venture, the very word pornography or better porn almost invariably connotes a certain exploitation at times degradation or desecration of human sexuality. It takes acts that may express affection, love, adoration, or even profound caring, and it dehumanises them into something animalistic”.
When the question was posed in The Guardian, some of the comments highlighted just how subjective these terms are. So one was “pornography is erotica which is not to the taste of the person describing it. Usually pornography is stronger than that which the person considers erotic”. And another was, “as a former bookseller, I would suggest that erotica is used by bookstores to disguise the fact that they're selling what most people perceive to be pornography. The distinction lies in the psyche of the purchaser or the retailer. If you feel guilty about what you buy or sell. Then you call it erotica”.
And a final one I once heard pornography described as “anything you fast forward through to get to the best bit”, which suggests you know that the entire aim is just to get off really?
Lisa 33:09
Yeah, yeah, that's interesting. You just reminded me of how inaccessible sexy content was in books when you're growing up, and everyone tried to share a copy of Judy Blume’s Forever around school. And it was really like everyone's like, just go to page 12. That's when you find out about sex. You know,
Sarah 33:26
Jilly Cooper, not Judy Blume when I was growing up, oh, yes.
Lisa 33:29
Well, there is this grey area between what counts as art and what counts as pornography. And it brings us on to the fact there's often been an overlap between sex and entertainment.
Sarah 33:40
We've seen porn filter into the mainstream on one level. Think of all the A-list film stars who have graced the covers of Playboy. You know, you've got Marilyn Monroe, Drew Barrymore, Charlize Theron and and Kim Basinger. And, and it sort of suggests a certain level of acceptance or even glamorization of being sexual, and music videos that was shocking in the early 90s. I mean, that they are tame compared to today's videos.
Lisa 34:02
I mean, yes, I mean, we had in the early 2000s, you know, raunch culture was absolutely in full swing, you know, bands like The Pussycat Dolls leading the charge. And you know, and then the recent years, we have the whole metoo movement, and that's put a greater emphasis on female empowerment with the aim of ending female exploitation in the entertainment industry. But on the other hand, you know, there's still these rumours of female stars and models engaging in sort of what we call yachting or selling sex to fund their lifestyles. And with the rise of platforms like OnlyFans, it seems we've reached this new intersection of sex and entertainment,
Sarah 34:36
Talking about OnlyFans, which is, if anyone doesn't know, it's a subscription based content platform that is primarily used by sex workers. And it rose to prominence during the lockdown when people couldn't do things in person. And it really, really took off. But it's also been in the news a lot because mainstream artists in the entertainment industry have joined it themselves. And they've openly talked about making millions from their posts, so mostly they post exclusive content that fans pay a subscription for, but fans can also interact with them and pay extra for specific requests. So for example, when she was speaking to the host, Andy Cohen, Australian rapper Iggy Azalea confessed to sending X rated voice messages to subscribers, in which she humiliates them over the size of their manhood.
Lisa 35:26
That's just like sex homework, right? Okay. Yeah, that's quite funny.
Sarah 35:31
So I think the sort of beginning of like the sort of celebs and OnlyFans combination was the actress and singer Bella Thorne. She joined the platform quite early in 2020, and she earned a record $1 million in her first 24 hours, and many other celebrities have joined since including Carmen Electra, rapper Cardi B, actress Denise Richards, and even her 18 year old daughter Sammi Sheen, and they've all just flocked to OnlyFans. And Iggy Azalea who we just mentioned, she's reportedly made millions. She was always known to make very raunchy music videos. With a lot of twerking and rapping about sex. One of her first songs that she rose to prominence with was actually called pussy, but she spoke with model EmRata on podcast HiLo. And she said, I've made a lot of people so much money off my body, and I got the smallest cut off my own fucking body. And my own work and my own ideas. It's been commodified. And I wasn't even the main fucking benefactor of it. So fuck this. And it was a DM comment in response said, “pretty sad that so much money can be made on OnlyFans that you ditch your career that you've worked so hard for and dreamed of from young”. Another comment was “when you qualified to do nothing, join OnlyFans”.
Lisa 36:48
And I've seen that as a kind of ongoing Instagram mean, like, you know, when you're really feeling exhausted at work, it's like, is it too late to start on OnlyFans account? Yeah, you know, I mean, it's an ongoing joke. Like, this is the kind of escape route.
Sarah 37:00
I've also seen articles where, you know, police, women and nurses end up getting fired when it comes out that they've got OnlyFans site.
Lisa 37:08
Yeah, exactly. And when we did our Reddit confessions episode, you know, we saw stories of people saying, I'm on OnlyFans and I'm worried that people are gonna find out. But yeah, that's a whole other thing. You know, however, others have defended the site as allowing women to share their own content and retain most of their money from it. I mean, there was controversy when Samm Sheen daughter, Charlie Sheen, and Denise Richards joined OnlyFans when she just turned 18. And Charlie told in use in a statement, I do not condone this she is 18 years old now and living with her mother. This did not occur under my roof. And her mother, Denise Richards, who you know, we know is famous for her 90s Erotic thriller Wild Things subsequently joined the site out of support for her daughter. And she said to KTLA, “My daughter got a lot of backlash for opening the account, I really think that the creators of the site really took the best of every platform of social media and put it into one site. We all post pictures with ourselves with bathing suits on Instagram, and some other sites, there's no difference other than you're actually owning the conten”t. And one source said that Richard’s realises she did Playboy herself OnlyFans is just the modern day version of that.
Sarah 38:15
Yeah, I mean, that's really interesting. And it doesn't make sense to see OnlyFans as sort of modern day incarnation of Playboy, and, you know, just the technological or higher technological version of it. But I would say that the potential interactive nature of OnlyFans makes it like closer to you than then than Playboy, you know, you're not just doing a photo shoot, and just literally walk away from the photo shoot, you don't have to think about, you know, are people masturbating over me all this stuff, you don't have to have any. You don't have to have any interaction with the people who might be. Whereas if people are sending you specific requests on any fans, it does feel much, much more. It does feel much, much more closer. You know, it feels it feels more invasive, I would say to the women doing it.
Lisa 39:03
Yeah. It's like it is sort of crossing in, like I said earlier, like what you turning into phone sex work,
Sarah 39:09
Yeah, and Sammi Sheen. So the 19 year old actually made headlines last week after referring to herself as a sex worker in a tick tock video detailing her career on OnlyFans. She did then later go on to qualify this by saying, I'm not a porn star. And I don't meet up with people. I don't feel myself having sex. I don't do that. And she continued, The only reason I said I'm a sex worker is because my main source of income is from my OnlyFans. And if people did their fucking research, they would realise that there's multiple forms of sex work. But at the same time, a source supposedly told people that this may be something that Sammi is doing to bother her father, and her father, Charlie Sheen, who we mentioned, you know, famous actor, but he reportedly paid over $1.6 million in 2013 alone on prostitutes, and one of the his quotes that he supposedly said about prostitutes as “ don't pay them for sex, I pay them to leave”. So some of the comments online were she's a walking textbook case of father issues, but who can blame her and her life is going to be one of a hot mess, looking for the camera at all cost, lost childhood, dysfunctional family and mucho money, what could go wrong? And finally, “so he can treat women like a piece of meat and then not like it when his offspring follows the same path, Dad of the year”. And I do think that's an interesting double standard, this this sort of putting women into different sections of men who want to treat some women a certain way, you know, dehumanise them, but they don't want their daughters treated in that way. But it doesn't occur to them that all of these women are the daughters of someone, you know?
Lisa 40:47
Exactly. And you see that time and time again, like when you sort of position it to men like there. Is that kind of like knowing that no, no, it couldn't be my wife and my daughter, you know? Yeah. But I honestly Sarah, I do feel conflicted. Because as you know, I grew up with Madonna and her hypersexuality, and really graphic imagery. It was all packaged up with sex and her body. But the thing is, I think the difference is that she was actually performing, there was great music to go along with it with whatever you think of her film career, it was interesting to watch. She's got a lot of charisma. And now I just feel with OnlyFans. It's just about the imagery, which I personally don't find inspiring, but I'm not probably their target market. But I respect it's a way to make money and be independent. And, you know, like that classic thing people say, to get out of these conversations, it's a slippery slope. So what do you think of OnlyFans?
Sarah 41:42
Well, you know, we've both mentioned Brene Brown many times before, and I just want to say I don't believe in shaming, people don't believe and I specifically don't believe in shaming women for exploring their sexuality. Particularly when it's, you know, it's so hypocritical, we shame the women but not the men. And I think there is somewhat of a double standard. So in some ways, OnlyFans is making it more direct, it's doing something more directly and brazenly. But it's doing exactly the same thing that a lot of the entertainment industry has done for a long time, which is using sex and predominantly female bodies and sexuality to make money. They're just not hiding it anymore. You know, it was subtly you could say it was art, but they were sort of using it on the download. Now. It's blatantly transactional. And I think that brings up a lot of discomfort for people, possibly for for good reason. But that said, Do I think it's healthy for society? I mean, I can imagine it's very tempting. If you're in your 20s, you have a great body and you find you can make a shitload of money just by taking photos of yourself at home. I also think it sort of depends, it's a case by case basis of how it's done. I do think that dehumanising sexuality so that it just becomes separated from the person and the connection, I think it can potentially be harmful to developing healthy loving relationships. So sex and sexuality is really important part of life, but not when it's divorced from the rest of being human. You know, it's like that. It's just all about the genitals, you know? And some researchers found that, yes, pornography, when used as a couple can potentially have some positive outcomes such as willingness to try new sexual behaviours, or increased sexual intimacy. The same research and a lot of other research has has found far more potential negative impacts. So for example, that people can face difficulty becoming sexually aroused with pornography, it's a bit like a drug where you need more and more and more of it, and where you end up losing interest in engaging in fewer sexual experiences with your partner, you're more potentially more likely to cheat, it can lead to your partner feeling sexually inadequate. And in general, this idea of both the user and the partner experiencing a decreased sort of relationship sexual satisfaction and reduced emotional closeness this this idea that you know, you can have, I know someone who did a lot of like counselling with with men who they really love their wives, but they couldn't then be sexual with them, because their sexuality needed to be degrading, in order to be aroused. So then they had to separate those two things out and it really caused massive problems for them.
Lisa 44:22
But what are your final thoughts on this topic?
Sarah 44:25
I think there's subjective definitions of art erotica and pornography, they make it really difficult to tease out these issues. So one person's erotic art is obscene to another person. Sexuality has often been saturated and shame particularly for women who are often judged for having sexual desires or enjoying sexual pleasure. So in some ways, I do think that the representation of sexuality in cinema and art can serve a purpose to open up conversations about female sexuality and the whole gamut of human experiences of which sex is a part.And as Lucy Ford wrote in GQ, in its best form, sex on screen offers so much as a shorthand from people falling in love or lust to a character showing vulnerability in moments only shared in private with another person. However, I also think that at its worst, when it divorces the physical sex act from any emotion, connection and meaning, and it reduces women down to receptacles for male arousal and entertainment, that ultimately, this is damaging for both men and women who, who are then unable to build healthy loving and sexually fulfilling relationships as a result. And I'm thinking of teenagers who who log on and they don't have any reference for what real sex is, and they think that this is real, you know, I'm gonna be honest, I'm still working through a lot of the unhealthy messages that that I absorbed about sex growing up. And my concern is that, you know, I really applaud women for taking control of their own sexuality and making their own choices. You know, I don't like kink shaming or anything like that. But there's a real risk that sites like OnlyFans can, in and of themselves, then become another tool for abusing women, and send the message to young girls that their only worth comes from what's in between their legs. And I do think shows like The Idol do seem to perpetuate that idea and and while it claims to satirize it, so far, from what I've seen, and we haven't finished it yet, but it mainly seems to be reveling in it rather than satirizing it. So, Lisa, what are your final thoughts on this topic?
Lisa 46:28
Well, it's interesting, isn't it? Because as we record this, The Idol has been HBO's number one show for 10 days. And I think this raises interesting questions about the consumption of provocative content. It makes me think if such content is widely regarded as offensive, why do so many people continue to watch and engage with it? And you know, we can easily find porn and sexual content online. And you know, going back to HBO, it publicly says it no longer does adult entertainment, yet it has spent 10s of millions to produce and promote sexually explicit content, placing it in a primetime slot under the banner of prestige drama. They hired two powerful men in Hollywood, the Weeknd and Sam Levinson to tell a narrative that essentially puts women back into submission and focus on their nudity. Lily Rose Depp’s argument that her participation in the show is not selling out to the male gaze, and as a form of empowered self expression may be met with skepticism. It is evident from the online reactions that her explicit scenes tend to overshadow her talents as an actress. This imbalance shifts the focus away from her acting abilities and raises questions about the show's priorities and intentions. And to me it seems that HBO has returned to the late night adult material from the 1990s and would rather have a summer hit that creates massive conversation, then put artistic integrity first. The Idol may make a lot of references to Madonna as a pop idol and Sharon Stone's character and Basic Instinct. But the crucial difference is is that they were in charge, and I really questioned why they made it and why now?
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48:06
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