Episode 15.
Today, we're diving into the world of blind gossip. Rumours that keep you guessing, but never reveal the subject's true identity.
During last week’s anonymous BBC sex pic scandal a frenzy of online speculation included a range of well-known names, including Gary Lineker and Jeremy Vine, until Huw Edwards was publicly named. We’re also going to be looking at other anonymous accusations such as Ulrika Jonsson and John Leslie.
Plus, we talk about the phenomenal rise of Gossip Blinds on Social Media, such as Deux Moi and Crazy Days and Nights, and their constant speculation about stars such as Henry Cavill and Anna Kendrick.
What we want to know is if blind gossip is just a modern-day tool for exposing corruption and bringing down powerful people? Or has it become a modern form of witch-hunt that possesses the power to ruin lives without accountability or due process?
Listen here:
[Apple] [Spotify] [Other Players]
Follow us on Instagram for news and behind-the-scenes @s2tcpodcast
If you like the show, please rate or review it and don't forget to share it.
This series is produced by Emily Crosby Media.
Click for the full transcript
Speakers: Sarah & Lisa
Lisa
A quick disclaimer before we start this episode, I actually recorded it in a cabin in rural Norway. So the sound my side is a little bit tinny, and apologies for that. Lessons learned I normally record it at home. But it's a great episode. And actually, Sarah and I will be back next Thursday with an extra special episode which you don't want to miss.
Lisa
We know that gossip can be fun. It's a way to connect with others and share valuable information. But what happens when gossip takes a turn for the worse?
Sarah
Today, we're actually going to be diving into the world of blind gossip. Rumours that keep you guessing, but never reveal the subjects true identity.
Lisa
Blind gossip has become a breeding ground for online witch hunts. People get obsessed with uncovering the truth. And it's like a frenzy to find out who's behind those mysterious clues,
Sarah
Which is exactly what we've seen in the last few weeks, with people frantically trying to uncover the identity of a male BBC presenter accused of inappropriate behaviour.
Lisa
Yes. And what we want to know is if blind gossip is just a modern day tool for exposing corruption and bring down powerful people,
Sarah
or has it become an uncontrollable form of speculation that possesses the power to ruin lives without accountability or due process. Let's find
Lisa
out and go straight to the comments. Okay, first, Sarah, do you read blind gossip?
Sarah
Um, yeah, I have to admit that I do. But it's only something I discovered last year, so relatively new, and have to be honest, whenever I'm reading them, I'm actually too lazy to try and work it out for myself. So I just go straight to the comments to see what the guest is on. And to be honest, that's the entertaining bit for me not so much working out who actually is.
Lisa
Me too. I mean, I read them on and off also. And I really enjoy kind of like working out who they are. But I want to see how good you are at guessing blind gossip clues. Do you wanna go? Alright, let's
Sarah
do this. Let's see how I could do. Okay,
Lisa
let's go. This is my first one. And remember, this is from a couple of years ago, but I think you might guess this one. This “permanent a list everything in her mind” star does not understand why her relationship or no engagement is not getting more attention. It could be because she's not relevant any longer and her boyfriend is not far behind in that category. The only people that care are the people who buy Jennifer Aniston is pregnant tabloids.
Sarah
From the just description itself, I wouldn't have guessed. But because I've read that site before, I know that he likes to say a list everything in her mind for Jennifer Lopez. So I'm gonna assume it was her only because of that. And actually, we did a JLo episode in the last season if you fancy a bit of a deep dive into her romantic life.
Lisa
So this is just from a couple of days ago. This A list actress who plays the same role in movies and television has no problems in her role of producer demanding other women get naked if they want to be cast, but she refuses to do it herself.
Sarah
Well, I have to make a confession. I actually read this. I know where it's wrong. And I wouldn't know I didn't know when I read it. But because I've read the gases I'm gonna say Sarah Jessica Parker. The only reason because I read it.
Lisa
Which is quite strange, because I mean, I'm watching the new season of and just like that, and like, yeah, she still does that thing where she's always wearing a bra and she has sex with everyone else is like completely nude. Yeah. But these blind gossips, were giving a bit of flavour how they work. And what we're talking about today is what happens when blind gossip or anonymous rumours kind of take a darker term, like they did the last few weeks with the whole BBC mail presents a scandal.
Sarah
Yeah, I think it really did. And it wasn't on a blind gossip site. This was an anonymous accusation in a mainstream newspaper. And this all started on Friday, the seventh of July when the sun broke the story that an unnamed BBC presenter a familiar face is known to millions on a six figure salary, had previously paid a teenager 35,000 pounds for sexually explicit photos, which the mother was the one who made the claims. And she said that then teenager who was actually now 20, had used the money to feel the serious drug problem. And there have been loads of twists and turns in the story. And I haven't actually followed all of them. But the alleged teenage victim has come forward and denied the accusations that his parents have made. There have been rumours of BBC cover ups and a possible police investigation. But as you can expect, when the news broke, all anyone wanted to know was oh my god, who was it? Please, I want to know who it is.
Lisa
The speculation went wild on social media. And I even myself, I was going onto Reddit Twitter and becoming an online detective trying to figure it out, like they were saying, or whoever it is, has been suspended. So they might not turn up on a television show today. And there was just a lot of a sort of game of elimination of the potential presenters. It could be
Sarah
Yeah, and this actually led to several top BBC presenters choosing to pub clearly their names because some of the speculation had landed on them. So for example, Rylan Clark. He's worked for the BBC since 2018. He tweeted, not sure why my name is floating about but read that story in the sun. That ain't me, babe. I'm currently filming a show in Italy for the BBC. So take my name out your mouth, which is obviously a reference to Will Smith at the last Oscars, and Paddy McGuinness, one of the hosts of the BBC is motoring show Top Gear. He actually posted a video on his Instagram to state his innocence and he exclaimed, It's bonkers. I even saw a couple of knuckleheads saying it was me, me. There's no way on God's green earth. I'm paying 35 grand for a while. With how long that takes me, I work that out at about a grand a stroke. That's not value for me not happening like this.
Lisa
I'm sorry, I'm trying to take this seriously. But like, it's like a lot of people are saying online, like, you know, that's a lot of money to pay for nudes or videos or whatever. And like someone tweeted, haven't they heard of Pornhub? Exactly.
Sarah
I mean, it doesn't make sense to me. But then, you know, that's, that's, that's me. But you know, with Paddy McGuinness, who we just mentioned, he's a comedian. So he he did obviously what comedians do best and made a joke. But I mean, there were several other you know, suppose it suspects who they took it much more seriously. And they pointed out the legal issues involved. So, Jeremy Vine responded to tweets who were trying to identify him as the BBC presenter. And he said, This is seriously defamatory of me. I've screenshotted it and the retweets and passed it to a lawyer. There is no truth whatsoever in what you're saying. And similarly, broadcaster and journalist Nicky Campbell, he's even gone to the Met Police to report trolls. And on his BBC Radio five live show, he said, so a bit of perspective here. worse things happen at sea, as they say. But it was a distressing weekend. I can't deny it for me and others falsely named. Today, I'm having further conversations with the police in terms of malicious communication. And with lawyers in terms of defamation. Well, that
Lisa
brings me to the legal side of this. I've been why couldn't the sun just name the person? I mean, it just seems a bit silly when you can go and find out who they are on Reddit, and Twitter anyway.
Sarah
Yeah, I mean, it is a bit confusing, but British press laws have often been seen as particularly restrictive. And what that means is that there's a lower threshold for being liable for defamation in court. Two of the biggest legal challenges facing journalists in the UK are defamation law and privacy law. And I'm just going to briefly explain it don't worry, I'm not going to become a hardcore lawyer here. But defamatory statements are those which tend to expose a person to hatred, ridicule or contempt, and could cause them to be shunned or avoided or lowered in the estimation of right thinking members of society. And then in privacy law states that everyone has a right to respect for his private and family life, his home and his correspondence. So in this particular BBC case, it's not believed that there are any court orders or injunctions. But the legal risk of linking a prominent person to what can be considered serious allegations is what actually stopped the mainstream news outlets from putting the name in the public domain. And this is mainly because the allegation involves a potential crime that could have a maximum sentence of 10 years in prison. This was something that was echoed by the BBC Director General Tim Davies. And he told staff, by law, individuals are entitled to a reasonable expectation of privacy, which is what's making this situation much more complex?
Lisa
Yeah, and to be honest. I just feel like it's one big media game. I mean, the son knows exactly what they're doing. And then there'll be wild speculation. Once the story is out, you know, the cats out the bag. They're happy as they're getting all these website clicks and making money. The BBC is a corporation has been forced into this position. And to spin this PR line, you know, like you said about the rights to privacy, and they have to do proper investigations. But what I found particularly surreal is that the BBC as a news channel, was reporting this story and sort of taking their neutrality to do to ludicrous level, as if they've no idea who the BBC presenter isn't and joining in on the speculation,
Sarah
it's really surreal, isn't it? It's like 4 D chess, because sometimes with these kinds of things, it feels like a fishing expedition. They put it out because they know they can't legally put it out. But once it's out, there'll be enough momentum with the cat out of the bag, that eventually there'll be a tipping point, and then they're allowed to report it so they sort of get round that loophole. But at that point, it did actually become a witch hunt where everyone was coming under suspicion and Jeremy Vine actually revealed that his wife had feared for safety and begged him to wear a disguise in public after you know, people started rambling naming him as the person. Apparently, she gave him baseball cap and told them you better wear this when he was going to a Bruce Springsteen concert that weekend.
Lisa
Wait, hold on, like he's wearing just a baseball cap like that is that the best disguise as middle aged white tall guy has got to disclose Yeah. How's that like a disguise?
Sarah
It's like Superman, isn't it? It's like take off the glasses. Oh, I didn't even recognise you. So he even went ahead and appealed to the actual person who it was referencing to put an end to the speculation. And he put out a tweet said, I'm starting to think the BBC presenter involved in the scandal should now come forward publicly. These new allegations will result in yet more vitriol being thrown at perfectly innocent colleagues of his. And the BBC, which I'm sure he loves is on its knees with this, but it is his decision and his alone, whereas other people actually disagreed on this point. So there was one tweet that said, But why should he Jeremy, why are the parents names protected? If they're allegations if he is innocent of them? Why should his name disclosed or he come forward? Media law protects people from not being named unless they have been charged with a crime. I can't help thinking this is all malicious. And there was another tweet said we are such a hypocritical country, the sun relentlessly publishes lewd content and then likes to play moral arbiter. The BBC seems to tie itself in knots because it's trying to go by the letter of the law. And the rest of us had nothing better to do than speculated about an allegation we know very little about this is the worst of us. And finally, this tweet, which actually made me laugh quite a lot is the BBC is on his knees with this. Would you like to choose different words? I'm sure the presenter involved got into this trouble by doing the same thing.
Lisa
Oh, stop it. I mean, that is too good. I mean, this is the thing I want to take this seriously. But there's seems like there's almost like a bit of male hysteria, like yeah, get out of hand.
Sarah
I mean, so, you know, we've talked about this from the anonymous perspective. But on Wednesday, the 12. The story took a turn because Hugh Edwards was conferred to be the person involved. And at this point, his wife actually released a statement saying, I'm doing this primarily out of concern for his mental well being and to protect our children who is suffering from serious mental health issues. The events of the last few days have greatly worsened matters, he suffered another serious episode and is now receiving inpatient hospital care where he'll stay for the foreseeable future. Once well enough to do so he intends to respond to the stories that have been published. I know that he was deeply sorry that so many colleagues have been impacted by the recent media speculation, we hope this statement will bring that to an end. And at the same time, as this was announced, to police forces determined that no criminal offence had been committed, and the BBC confirmed that it will resume its fact finding investigations to ensure due process and a thorough assessment of the facts, whilst continuing to be mindful of our duty of care to all involved.
Lisa
We've literally just covered the Phil Schofield sort of online mob and the whole sort of mental health fallout from that. And those interviews he gave where he said he was really being driven to the edge. Yeah, I went onto Twitter just to take a temperature reading of how people were responding to the statement and the news that it was Hugh Edwards. And the first tweet I read was, and it was really trending was, I'd be trying to talk myself off if I spent 36,000 on nudes. And then the secondary I always first always the sunset site to destroy people's lives. We see a family destroyed, and I for one feel sadness for everyone affected. And then this third tweet, it didn't have mental health issues until he got caught. I've no sympathy for him. I hope he's paying privately for his treatment. Well, let's just say, you know, when I read some of these, and a lot of the responses, there was not a lot of empathy, like we just discussed also in our Titan episode.
Sarah
You know, we actually start to wonder if some of this has to do with how it seems that the BBC celebrities have, you know, previously gotten away with some really bad behaviour without any repercussion. So, you know, the main one I'm thinking of is Jimmy Savile. So there was a Daily Mail comment that said BBC is a haven for pervs. Everyone knows it, and no one does anything to stop it. So I think there's this weird desire to overcorrect and actually heat punishment on the current people to make up for the fact that the previous ones had had not been held to account. But I do want to say you know, sexual assault, it's it's a really serious thing. And there should be appropriate punishment for those proven to be perpetrators. And that should be regardless of their position, their wealth and their fame. So I mean, that is something to bear in mind. But you know,
Lisa
but like you said, I do feel like we're in this era now hyper vigilance or sort of need to behaviour. And I saw this comment on the man online, on the tube. Now they say report someone looking at you in an inappropriate way. And my friend has a serious vision problem. And I bet he will be arrested any day. This has just gone to a Witchfinder General level of guilt. And it really then made me think of the crucible right when we talk about witch hunts. Yeah. And I think my main introduction to The Crucible, yes, I studied it as a play, but I also loved the 90s film with Winona Ryder and Daniel Day Lewis. It was just so intense, like I had that stomach ache, you know, from watching it.
Sarah
Yeah, I love that film. And But we actually had to do the play at school as well. So we really went into it, and I actually enjoyed it. But it was, you know, it was so it was essentially about a group of teenage girls who are whipped into a hysteria, and then they're just, you know, going around accusing everyone of being witches, but particularly the wives of the men they fancied. You know, there was an interesting correlation. But I don't know, I've always felt really emotionally invested in the whole story of the history of the witch trials, because it's pretty much always women who are the ones that are hunted, and I just, I could so see myself being one of those. If I was alive in those times, I'd just be one of those eccentric people that they're like, there's something wrong with her, we
Lisa
really have to go. We'd have each other.
Sarah
Oh, she's too old to be single must be
Lisa
talks to me loudly.
Sarah
And my dad was actually born on Pendle Hill where one of the famous Lancashire witch trials started, where 10 were actually hanged, and a number of others were imprisoned. And I think it really just highlights this absolute danger of mob rule and group hysteria, you know,
Lisa
but yeah, it's interesting, because like, I really associate witches with like Salem and the UK, but sometimes forget that there's happening all across Europe. And when I first got to Norway, someone told me like this terrifying story about one of the worst witch hunts in Europe. It was in Northern Norway, there's this place called Vardo. It's a very small, very remote and desolate place. And He's even been referred to in the history books as the entrance to hell. Wow. So setting the scene for you. But between 5093 and 6092 91, people, mostly women were found guilty of witchcraft and killed, it all started going around 40 fishermen died at sea in a storm. And they then accused all the village women of sorcery and burned them at the stake. One of the things I'd love to do is actually go on a trip with you to go and visit this place. I'd love to, yeah, they've now got a memorial that and it features a sort of burning chair that overlooks the sea. And I think it's a very sombre reminder of like, the terrifying things that happen during witch hunts. I mean, I think it's fair to say, Sarah, that we are hooked on mysteries, you can understand why the BBC story really blew up. I mean, look how popular true crime is. And as soon as there's a secret we're not in on, we're desperate to be on the inside.
Sarah
That is so true. And you know, when I was looking up, I found this core comment in response to the question, Why are humans so driven to find answers to mysteries? And someone wrote, humans are driven to find answers to mysteries for a variety of reasons, including one curiosity. So you know, humans have an innate desire to learn, explore, to there's actually an evolutionary advantage, and those who are curious and so answers to mysteries were often the ones better equipped to survive, and then thrive and reproduce. And three, I think this is a really big one sense of control. So finding answers to mysteries can really give us a sense of control over our environment and our lives. And it allows us to understand and predict the world around us, which which can be very comforting when it feels like the world is uncertain or dangerous. And for social bonding, basically. So solving mysteries. You know, it can be a social activity that brings people together and it can create a shared sense of excitement and accomplishment and it gives you a sense of community. So there are a lot of reasons why why mysteries are popular. I mean, I think I already know the answer to this, Lisa, but for for our listeners who don't do you like mysteries?
Lisa
Oh, yes, I absolutely love mysteries. And I'm, you know, I'm still trying to figure out the Bermuda Triangle, Bigfoot, And why Solange beat up Jay Z in the elevator. I mean, that is like the biggest mystery of all time.
Sarah
Yes. And why Beyonce just stood there as if nothing was happening and just sort of was
Lisa
like shuffling to the side. I don't know just love all that it actually for the listeners if you want a good podcast recommendation, there's unexplained mysteries. And I think they even say that up, you know, that we just love. It's not enough that the world is just mysterious in itself. We need another mystery on top of the mystery. Do you see what I mean? Totally. Yeah. And I but I just get a bit frustrated because even though it's called unexplained mysteries, I still want some of it to be solved. I get a bit notated after a while.
Sarah
Yeah, yeah, I get that because one of my favourite podcasts is a true crime podcast called case file. And most of them are solved crimes, but there are unsolved ones on and that really frustrates me I'm like, but I need to know. Yeah, I've always said which is really weird. If I was a psychic, if I could just know the answers to the world. The first thing I would do would be to go around finding out the answers to unsolved crimes like I really need to know who the Zodiac Killer is and Jack the Ripper that, you know, I'm like, This is what I need to prioritise with my psychic abilities.
Lisa
So you're not going to be talking to all your like distant Aunt Gertrude types, then?
Sarah
No, I'm going to be solving these mysteries. Yeah, yeah. And as I shared on Last episode, you know how you do genuinely find the unknown, quite scary. I'm sure it's a control thing. But my mum used to do this thing where she'd be like, I've got a surprise for you, but I'm not going to tell you, you'll have to win me and I would just be so frustrated. Yeah. And she'd usually end up telling me, but for me, it was either tell me, or just surprise me at the time. Don't tell me you're gonna surprise me. And now I've got all this time just waiting. Like, I really don't like that. That's just stresses me out. So
Lisa
just give me low level anxiety.
Sarah
Yeah. Is this a good one or one of those really bad ones that you thought was great. It was terrible.
Lisa
Yeah, exactly.
Sarah
I mean, and this isn't the first time these unnamed scandals have happened. And then you know, they trigger a slew of armchair detectives. You know this story with the BBC it actually reminded me of when female comedians Katherine Ryan and Sara Pascoe, they talked about a sexual predator they'd worked with, but they didn't name them. And at the time, people's responses, for example, comments on DM were either get it out in the open properly or keep quiet, don't tease. In other words, the police are the people to tell not audiences, if these two are serious about protecting women, why have they not reported the offences? And then other people were sceptical. There was a comment that said secondhand publicity seeking speculation. Another one that said book to sell no doubt. And another one that I think is quite interesting is I think Amber herd has damaged these women's chances of getting support, go to the police. If they are found guilty, then we'll listen. But, you know, despite this, this backlash, Katherine Ryan actually defended herself in an interview with Louie through and he himself challenged her on why she hadn't publicly named the person and possibly protected future victims. But what she said in response was, it's very dangerous for us to have this conversation. I mean, I'm happy to have it, but it is a litigious minefield, because lots of people have tried to nail this person down for their alleged crimes, and this person has very good lawyers. So am I going to put my mortgage on the line by saying who this person is or entering into any conversations like that? We've seen what happens to the people who talk about alleged predators. Interestingly, a male comedian Daniel sloths defended her and called her brave. And what he essentially said was, you know, it's not the female comedians responsibility to expose famous predators if the media wanted to expose them that ask the man, it's such a complex topic, I think, because, you know, if it's your personal experience, in a way, I believe you have a right to share what happened to you, but also understand why you'd want to protect yourself. And there were loads of examples like this, where Anna Kendrick was talking about an abusive ex and Rika Johnson revealed that she had been raped by a well known TV personality when she was a 19 year old secretary in 1988.
Lisa
You know, I really remember that story. Because I remember there was all this sort of noise around who it could be. And then there's a sort of big twist when Matthew Wright came out on his TV show and said, it's John Leslie. He's the perpetrator. And he set it on live TV. Aiming, it was an open secret. But lately, he had to backtrack and apologise. Although, you know, it's too late really, is triggered an avalanche of various women coming forward with a string of sexual assault allegations, which pretty much ended his career.
Sarah
Yeah. And you know, what's interesting is even though or we could Johnson herself, never named him, John Leslie actually still blames her. And he said, I just hope she regrets doing what she did. It was brutal, unforgivable, really. And he went on to say another time, I was not dammed by anything or Rika said I was damned by her silence. With one simple statement, she could have resolved this one way or another. If she had said, John Leslie did not rape me, that would have put an end to it. If she had said, John Leslie did rape me, I could have defended myself. And I think that's a really interesting issue, because, you know, she never actually accused herself. But after Matthew Wright had named him, her not denying it is almost deafening, if you know what I mean. Yeah. And it raises a lot of questions, it makes you go, Hmm, maybe it is him. And that's why she's not saying anything, you know, she's basically confirming through silence. Or if it's not him, the reason that she's not saying anything is that she knows something else about him that he's not a great guy. And there's a reason why she's not defending him, as well. So it brings up all these thoughts, we start speculating, and I can understand that.
Lisa
And what I find intriguing is this idea of like, what everyone knows, isn't it's an open secret. I think that's a big part of the issue. And I think for the people, like when you read the comments, there's this perception that the TV and media circles, you know, they have all these sort of big open secrets and which we're not in on the Harvey Weinstein like people. I knew that about him for years. And you're like, Well, why didn't you say anything? And you remember, there was a hashtag hashtag she knew, like Yeah, have anger.
Sarah
I remember towards Meryl Streep was one of them
Lisa
that they had known that this was going on, but they had said nothing and would
Sarah
therefore complicit, you know, and there was also that whole Golden Age of Hollywood where everyone sort of knew who was gay and who wasn't who was in the closet. So, you know, like duck boat Bogart, Montgomery Clift when they're all in the sort of lavender marriages or the public had no idea whatsoever. I mean, my mom's biggest crush growing up was Rock Hudson, and she was devastated when she found out he was gay. I mean, it's not like he was gonna marry her. So
Lisa
I think like, why was the same? I don't think she ever knew that he was gay, you know? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. But I think that this, like, you know, the culture we're living in now is like, oh, I want to get the tea, or I want to get the scoop. You know, we want to be on the in and know the secrets. You know what I mean?
Sarah
Definitely. And I think you'll see this even in everyday life, not just in celebrity gossip. But when you're part of the in group that know the gossip, you feel special, you feel included, you feel connected, you're like, Oh, I know something someone else doesn't. No one wants to be on the outside, do they, they don't want to be the person who didn't know while everyone else did. And I think that's one of the reasons gossip. So, so popular. It's also another form of entertainment, we want to know the craziest, most salacious things that others get up to, especially celebrities, because they they're living these Charmed, totally over the top lives, and we want to know, they're human, that they make mistakes. And maybe they're even despite the fame and the riches, their life's actually more of a mess than ours, so we can feel a bit better about our own lives. So I think that plays a role for sure.
Lisa
Outside these anonymous scandals in the mainstream media, there's also a whole industry of what is called and we described earlier gossip lines that are really starting to rival and I would even say starting to replace traditional journalism. Just to make it clear of what gossip blind is. GQ has got this great description. They are pulled from a network of unnamed sources. Industry insiders or submissions from users blind are usually one or two lines with clues written almost entirely in code detailing a shocking rumour about someone that isn't public knowledge yet, and they are huge on social media, especially on Tik Tok. And like I said, I think they're almost starting to replace official news websites and gossip websites, because they can seem quite slow in comparison when it comes to the rotation of kind of news stories. And did you hear about someone so going to a coffee shop and they did this and did that to the you know, the barista? You know, yeah, it's
Sarah
all in real time. And I think you know, like you've said, tick tock has definitely fueled this resurgence of bias. But it's not a new thing. I mean, gossip plans actually date back to the late 19th century when civil war hero Colonel William Dalton man was caught in math. He inherited a paper from his delinquent brother. He then hired a network of servants and spies to basically pass in gossip about the high society figures in New York at the time. And then he published them in a column called saunter rings, as riddles quite similar to Britain's lady Whistle Down, which is a very popular show. And you know, the format of concealing names through code. It's existed throughout the 20th century. And it's sort of set the ground for modern gossip columnist, and even played a role in historical events like the Hollywood communist blacklist. But in addition to the appeal of the salacious gossip, there's also this added fun of trying to solve a riddle. And this really took off in the mid to late 2000s, when blogs were huge. So it gave rise to sites like crazy days and nights, which is often shorted to see down Laney gossip, blind gossip. And now with social media, you've got these Instagram accounts like de moi, which are absolutely huge.
Lisa
Oh my goodness, share that absolutely huge. And it's interesting, because there almost seems to be like similar themes that reappear on these blinds. It almost is like this. So this is what I kind of worked out. You got, obviously celebrity hookups and affairs, then you got the closeted stars and contract relationships. Or I'm doing quotation marks, you can't see bidding. Another quotation mark. I'm doing yachting, you know, the idea of young female actresses models taking part in high class prostitution, often in Cannes, and Dubai. And then the dark part of it that I'm seeing more and more of is a real fixation on paedophilia, and illegal behaviour.
Sarah
Ya know, I've really noticed those themes myself. And it seems that see down as we said, crazy days and nights, I do read that sometimes, but purely for entertainment. And I take it with a pinch of salt, like I'm watching a soap. And it's funny actually, because if you read enough of them, you'll see that there are contradictory ones about the same celebrities on the same site. So you know, I've seen blinds that implied that Henry Cavill was secretly gay one minute, and the next minute the blinds are implying that he only likes underage girls. So it's like, I mean, it can't be both guys. It can't be, you know, and that's what you have to start going, huh? Okay. Yeah, there was a Reddit thread where it said, What's the most interesting celeb blind items that you've come across. And one person he gave three of the top ones for him, I think give you an idea of the level of blinds. So James Dean, not dying in that crash and moving to Canada getting married, having kids and grandkids and dying a few years ago, which isn't something I've heard, but it's you know. And then Marvin Gaye being a serial killer.
Lisa
I mean, that I mean, I've seen like, what the hell yeah,
Sarah
I haven't seen that at all. And then a whole nother crazy. One was Tom Cruise being a client of Leelee Sobieski, who's an actress, but that as her working as a dominatrix, so I was like, oh, that's what?
Lisa
Yeah, I was just scared. You're gonna say something about Scientology? Because I don't want him to come after us. You know,
Sarah
we're not gonna know, it was literally just dominatrix stuff. It's fine.
Lisa
But yeah, I've been reading these sites on and off for a couple of years. And I mean, he's still in the realms of sort of crazy celebrity gossip, on almost unbelievable that they're funny. One of the commentators on the site said this, which I thought was very good. You're simply using this site to feed your own prejudices and assumptions about celebrities, which is that they're all apart from one good egg or two or degenerates, and that we should just trust them. What you want from that site is confirmation of validation from your own biases. And that's exactly what it's providing to you. I've noticed over the last few months over the last year, there definitely seems to be a rise in what you could call almost full scale, upsetting conspiracy theories.
Sarah
Yeah, I've noticed that myself and Troy Makini, who's the co host of the celebrity gossip podcast, beyond the blinds, he's spoken about this. And he said, a weird thing happened post me to where Sudan and old school Catherine couch Duff, which has always been at the core of Sudan crossed paths with Q anon. And now they exist in the same world. So it's really become hard to navigate. And people have started commenting on this on the blind themselves. So for example, I saw one comment that said, it's all bullshit, see down it for fun, if you want to fall into it and make it your life. That's your decision. All of these people are falling for Q anon BS already have underlying psychological issues. And just for those who don't know, because I didn't really know myself. Q anon is it's a wide ranging and unfounded conspiracy theory that started around 2017. And it says that President Trump is waging a secret war against elite Satan worshipping paedophiles in government, business and the media. Oh, yeah,
Lisa
I know a little bit about this. I mean, lots of talks about global elites and deep state, which to be fair, I am a little bit suspicious of individuals and companies who have just a bit too much power, and maybe a bit too much money.
Sarah
Yeah, and I mean, I completely understand that natural suspicion towards power structures that you're actually talking about. But I mean, the difference with these quite extreme movements, such as Q Anon, is that they can actually be used as a cover for anti semitism, and also this idea of needing to fight back against the so called Evil Cabal. It has actually been used by certain anonymous groups online to actually encourage violent and illegal behaviour unfortunately, the thing is, though, conspiracy theories, they do have a strong psychological appeal to quite a lot of people. And psychologists have done some research into this. So Karen Douglas, a psychology professor at the University of Kent said, on some level, we're all predisposed to be suspicious, or mistrustful of government, that we are wary of groups or people we do not understand makes sense from an evolutionary perspective. In some ways, it's quite adaptive to be suspicious of other groups for your own personal safety. Some of the research has actually suggested that conspiracy theories enable an alternative reality in which people can basically defend a fragile ego. And they do that by seeing themselves in their groups is important that they have an alternative secret explanation about certain world events. It can also help people make sense of a world when they're feeling out of control. So when they're anxious or they feel powerless, so University of Bristol Psychology Professor Steven no doubt ski says, it can be psychologically comforting for some to believe that powerful people are behind random events. And then there's just the whole element of being entertained and the opportunity to uncover mystery in an exciting story. And that just gives you instant gratification and a dopamine hit. So there are a lot of reasons why conspiracy theories are appealing. It's
Lisa
interesting because I sort of grew up thinking conspiracy theories. I was thinking of Illuminati, tinfoil hat, but I do feel like conspiracy to theories have become more and more mainstream, and people finding it easier to believe that there could be large scale cover ups and nefarious agendas. Yeah, I
Sarah
think in addition to the general appeal, the pandemic has also played a role. So I mean, there is a big link between anxiety and the rise of conspiratorial thinking. So in Psychology Today, they said, it's no coincidence that conspiratorial worldviews have flourished during the pandemic. By providing predictability and purpose, they can help relieve the anxiety we feel in the face of an unpredictable, threatening and disempowering world. But I do want to say on the other hand, that the difficulty with the term conspiracy theory is it's often used very derogatorily. Like it's used as an insult sort of akin to, well, if you believe in this, you're probably ignorant, uneducated, paranoid, gullible, all these things, but what counts as a conspiracy theory can range across a really huge spectrum. So you can go from celebrities, disguising drug addictions, under the guise of exhaustion, which is quite mild, all the way to people believing that the Queen was a lizard, you know, they're quite a big, a big range. And I remember always thinking, you know, how can you tell the difference between paranoia and just being perceptive? And essentially, it's only hindsight, if it's proven proven to be true, essentially. You know, we touched on the Gwyneth Paltrow and the goop episode from our first series, you can say I subscribe to some alternative beliefs, particularly around spirituality, etc. So, you know, definitely by some people's standards, I might be considered what my uncle used to always call a cosmic pixie. And then, on other standards, I'm quite quite a fan of science and things like that. So it's, you know, it's a complex topic.
Lisa
I also think these blind gossip sites can be an important way to expose corruption and redress the power balance. And I'm really all for healthy scepticism and encouraging critical thinking. I think Hollywood has been called Hollyweird for a reason. And for a long time. And I think it's quite good that we have these sites that are kind of keeping tabs and check on what is going on. And actually, there was this recent line that was posted on CD, and that sort of highlights their potential to create a positive impact on the world. And then there was this post, what happens when staffers who worked for two of the biggest pop stars in the world read see down religiously, they changed the world touring companies and are planning to on mandatory sexual assault and racist background checks. I'm touring stuff me to checks limit the risk of scandal by weeding out anyone who stands in the way of profits. And okay, it's because of profits, they're doing it but ultimately, is also stopping potentially, you know, hiring people that have got shady past backgrounds. Yeah,
Sarah
sometimes it's, it's the outcome is more important than the reason why, you know, and similarly, John Cook, who is the former editor of Gorka, he said, gossip is the weapon that the powerless have, the assistants can't do anything when their boss shifts on them and treats people horribly, but they can shoot off an email, we were able to sort of seize on these power dynamics and hold people accountable. So there's definitely an upside to this kind of industry as well, or a potential upside.
Lisa
What we were very ambitiously trying to achieve in this episode are out. If the rise and rise of this blind gossip anonymous rumours are actually a good thing and healthy for society. I'm really curious whether these sorts of blind gossip sites will start to replace traditional journalism, which you know, is something you trained to do. You have to have sources that can be verified. And it also puts the readers in a strange position where it's like, well, do they even care? As long as it's really juicy gossip? It's exciting. Does it really matter if it's that truthful, if it's slightly anonymized, but you kind of know who it is?
Sarah
I think people are inherently curious. I mean, we love a good mystery. So secret scandals are hugely appealing. And I'll hold my hand up and say to me, too, we live in a world we're really aware of the PR machine and the concept of spin. And so that means we are more sceptical of what we're being told by the media. But I think more important than that, is that the last few years have been really tough. And it's meant that we've been living in an increasingly scary and volatile world. And when you combine that anxiety with the increasing scepticism that we are aware of it mean it means that we're essentially getting more susceptible to conspiracy theories, rightly or wrongly I, you know, that they're, you're gonna want to judge them each individually, but celebrities have also become these almost exaggerated characters in a soap opera. And the disparity between those who are living this sort of exciting and privileged lives and the everyday person. It just seems to be getting wider and wider and and we want to go behind the scenes and get the real story. We're really sick of being Lie to, and gossip blinds, they cater to this curiosity. So on the one hand, there can be a way of allowing a glimpse at the the what you could call the underbelly of celebrity in a way to find out what the celebrities are really like. Because we've got this perfection of advertising and PR, we're so desperate to just see something real and genuine. But then on the flip side, they can almost be a breeding ground for mass hysteria, and we can easily forget that the soap opera s characters are actually representing real people underneath. You know, we've had a lifetime of it feeling like celebrities have not only got away with a landslide of bad behaviour, but even been protected by those around them. So I think it's understandable that there's a lot of anger from people towards corporations like the BBC. But it's also important to make sure that, you know, these potentially innocent individuals and their families don't become collateral damage in the expression of that anger.
Lisa
Yeah, is a really delicate line. And just be honest, we'd be reading see down tonight
Sarah
there's a possibility I can't I can't comment at this moment.
Lisa
Okay, thank you for listening. And we have a very special Barbie episode coming out next week. I am super thrilled to be doing there. Sarah, are you ready to go and see Barbie?
Sarah
I'm ready and I've got my pink outfit. Nicely picked out
Lisa
me too. And we need the selfie for the proof.
See you next time.
Lisa
Next time. Thank you to our lovely producer Emily. If you enjoy today's episode, please don't forget to leave a review and subscribe. It really does help us in reaching more people. You can also follow us on Instagram. Our handle is at s to TC podcast. You can find out more about the show get behind the scenes. Come and say hello. Until then. See you next time.
Sarah
This podcast has been produced by Emily Crosby media