Bonus episode.
Today we are exploring the dark side of social media and the growing trend of hate scrolling. From how Lizzo has been pushed to the edge with more Twitter put-downs to the media storm around Phil Schofield.
We also discuss how we handled our own mini online backlash to one of our episodes. We ask why is there so much hostility online? Why do people feel the need to be right at all costs? And what is the psychology behind a pile-on?
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This series is produced by Emily Crosby Media.
Click here for the full transcript
SPEAKERS
Sarah, Lisa
Lisa 00:06
So welcome back to part two of our bonus special. In today's show, we're going to pick up where we left off in part one, which is talking about the impact of social media and comment culture.
Sarah 00:16
And we'll be starting with Lizzo, who last week talked about quitting social media for good because of the fat shaming. And we'll go into the This Morning fallout and why it's captivated the UK and its potential repercussions.
Lisa 00:27
And then how we handled our own mini backlash to our Alice Evans episode. Okay, are you ready to go straight to the comments?
Sarah 00:34
Yes. And first off, we're going to return to Lizzo, who we covered in episode three. For people who maybe don't know who Lizzo is. She's an American singer, rapper, flautist, classically trained. And she's known for embracing her body and sexuality, including twerking on stage, and she appeared naked on the cover of one of her albums, the album Cuz I Love You. She's very confident in her body and herself. And she declares that “I know I'm fat. It doesn't bother me. I like being fat. And I'm beautiful. And I'm healthy. So can we move on?” But she just this week, came out and said that she she actually nearly wanted to quit social media even more. And she was, you know, saying maybe - do I even want to do this anymore. And you know, as you know, the fat shaming episode was one of my favourites. And if you haven't listened to it, you can pause here and go back to episode three. Where we talk about Lizzo as well. I mean, she said she wanted to like quit social media for good. And it started when someone tweeted a video of her dancing saying “How is Lizzo this fat when she's constantly moving this much on stage? I wonder what she must be eating.” And then the laughing face emoji.
Lisa 01:41
I just feel really sorry for Lizzo, you know, and I think whether you think she is promoting obesity or not, why speak to her like that. And you know, and this woman's tweet was trending. I mean, really trending. I can't remember the number of retweets and likes it had, but it was huge.
Sarah 01:56
Yeah, yeah. I mean, and Lizzo, she responded to this. I think she put a human face on, you know how that there is someone reading this. And she said, “I just logged on the app and this is the type of shit I see about me on a daily basis. It's really starting to make me hate the world”. And then someone else actually commented, “I don't think Lizzo wants to be smaller yet. If she did, she would be. It is her brand. If she's working with nutritionists, they're probably showing her how to eat healthy and maintain her size”. And Lizzo hit back. “Being fat isn't my brand. Being fat is what my body looks like. That's it. That's all. My brand is feel good music. My brand is championing all people. My brand is black girl liberation”. And someone actually spoke up for her. And they said, “I wish y'all would just be honest and say what really bothers y'all about Lizzo. She makes you feel bad because you've lived your whole life, attaching your self worth to thinness and to see her live bold and talented in a big black body bothers you.” And finally, Lizzo said, “The love definitely doesn't outweigh the hate on social media. All because I'm fat? This is crazy.”
Lisa 03:04
I mean, it is actually crazy how much he gets. And I feel like I'm getting deja vu from our fat shaming episode. And like I said, who would actually have the gall to go up to her and say this to her face? I really think I couldn't imagine someone standing there and having eye contact and telling her this. And it reminds me of a comment that I actually saw about Drew Barrymore, which, let's be honest, I think Drew Barrymore has her whole life been the ideal body shape, right? And weight. I've never seen her struggle with her weight. And I think she's talked about struggles with her weight. The other day, Drew Barrymore described how painful she found it running on Instagram in a post. And I agree with her, it is painful to run at 48. And someone wrote underneath, “you have to lose weight first. You're a mess Drew Barrymore.”
Sarah 03:48
Wow. I mean, I've so many questions, because part of me wants to go. Are they also 48? Or are they are they a 23 year old thinking that you know, she's making it up about being 48. I can tell you being back in my family home, there are stairs here. There are not stairs in South Africa. I don't mean in the whole of South Africa. Most people live in sort of like single storey because there’s the space. My knees, I can really feel them and I, you know, I could be fitter. I do need to get fitter. But I was, you know, I did not feel this when I was in my 20s.
Lisa
Yeah.
Sarah
And, you know, what's interesting is you brought up who would say this to her face. And what's interesting as someone who has been like sort of morbidly obese in public, I think I anticipated a lot more hate than I got, but I have had people say stuff to my face, especially if someone was drunk or, or teenage boys who like egg each other on. I've had stuff said to me directly, but I think you're right. Most people, they they get the false confidence when they're behind their keyboard. You know, it gives them the freedom to say all the horrible thoughts that have come into their head that you wouldn't say in reality. Again, and we talked about this in that episode, people get so so angry about fat, like, disproportionately in my my opinion. I don't understand how it actively affects you. I mean, people sort of talk about, oh, well, if you sit on the plane next to me all these things, but ultimately most of the time people are just angry that you exist. And, and I think they have to really look at why it's so so triggering to them, because you are not going to catch my fat. Yeah, I'm not infectious. So just I mean, Uh, yeah.
Lisa 05:30
But it's true. And it's like, and everyone commented underneath the, that post that they wrote to Drew, and said, you know, “why would you say something to her so mean”, you know, again, Drew seems to give out a lot of positive happy energy like Lizzo. And the original poster said, to your point earlier, “I'm not fat shaming her, just speaking truths.”
Sarah 05:52
Oh, God. I mean, it's the go to, isn't it? Like, I'm just, I need to speak my truth. And it's like, your truth. That's the important bit, is that it's subjective. You know, we say this like, oh, it's truth. It's, it's universally truth. I mean, I don't know that I believe that there is a fully objective truth. Yes, obesity is a huge issue. And health is important. And no one wants to glorify eating disorders or being unwell. But I don't know how just living in your body and choosing to accept it as it is in that moment, is glorifying anything. And I sort of, I love that line that you said in the fat shaming episode, “where does shaming people especially publicly get anyone”, because all the, all this, the research shows that it doesn't help people lose weight. In fact, it makes them put on more weight?
Lisa 06:40
Yeah, even I think Madonna finally caved into the body shaming she had over her face and admitted surgery. And I don't know, she seemed to retreat a little bit. I mean, is that what people want? They want people just to sort of go into the shadows, you know, and just go away.
Sarah
Yeah.
Lisa
So during our break, it has been wall to wall coverage about Phil Schofield and the This Morning show. And it feels like we're seeing similar themes and the reactions that we had in our James Corden and Ellen episode.
Sarah 07:10
Yeah, exactly. I mean, you have the, you have quite serious accusations. And to be fair, Phillip Schofield, he's confessed to an affair with a very young, but at the time of the affair legal junior on his TV show. Although he supposedly had a connection with him from a much younger age, and so there have been accusations of of grooming. We're not really going to go into the full details, because we're not doing a whole episode on this. But this is again, ultimately a story about a man who made his brand on being really nice, being approachable, being you know, the man next door that we saw every morning, and now his mask has slipped, and that we're finding out that someone who we grew up with, who with Gordon the Gopher, and now he's actually someone who's not only not living up to expectations, but there's this idea that it's not just this event, but that there is a pattern of bad behaviour and all these stories coming out , oh he’s never be nice, this has all been fake, and you've all fallen for it. People really react to those kinds of stories. And they get pulled into this vortex of sort of scandal. Did Holly Willoughby know? Is this a cover up? Is ITV in general corrupt? And then there becomes a whole pile on of fellow presenters accusing Phil and also Holly of bad behaviour. Oh, well, there was all this stuff from before that, you know, we're now allowed to talk about, that we have have basically not been allowed to say. It's like when people have a big argument with a partner and they bring up all their past discrepancies, you know? So I mean, here are some of the comments. Someone on the MailOnline said “they're all as false as each other, This Morning, Lorraine, Good Morning Britain, the lot.”
Lisa 08:52
It's been a constant media circus and a real social media pile on but what struck me was his interviews with The Sun and the BBC on Friday, the second of June where he said, “I'm not sleeping, I'm not eating. There's a lot of Southern Comfort”. He said, “My mind is in constant utter turmoil. I think back to regrets, forward to what do I do now? What am I going to do?” He spoke to the BBC and said he's lost everything in the wake of his affair, as he told of a catastrophic effect on his mind. He said the fallout from the revelations has been relentless, and told the BBC’s Amol Rajan of the criticism he has faced since admitting the affair saying “do you want me to die because that's where I am.” So he then went on to say that he saw nothing ahead and that it's relentless, and it's day after day after day after day. Even the Mail Online readers were starting to get sick of what they're seeing is a witch hunt. With the top most liked comments being “we don't know how people react to constant media scrutiny, but no one deserves to feel that they have nothing left to live for. Imagine if today's headlines had been that he'd ended his life”. And then someone else said “loads of men have affairs with young women. They are not made into villains. Okay, it's bad judgement decision, but nothing illegal. Leave the man alone.” What I wanted to ask Sarah is that even if someone is sort of found out and apologises, when does the media and attack stop? Where do we draw the line? And what is the purpose of constantly, almost like crucifying him?
Sarah 10:13
And there's a big difference and saying, you know, I don't think we can keep endorsing, having this person on on a show, we do need them to quit. I don't want to encourage that. You know, when people are saying that, and going, Yeah, but we're going to keep crucifying Him because that's a different thing. And it sort of reminds me of, you know, pile ons how people love to do. In a Guardian article, Brigid Delaney said, “after years of being told to think positively, we no longer know what to do with our negative feelings, so we blurt them out online”. And also from a bit of research, you know, piling on it can be motivated by moral grandstanding. And the definition of that is the use of moral talk to seek status or to promote oneself. I mean, a lot of people use the term virtue signalling and I think it's pretty much the same thing. And that that's a big thing of people, that people do online now. And and that it's, you know, it's a big motivator of cancel culture. And there was an article by Justin Tosi, and Brandon Warmke in an academic journal, which was the Philosophy and Public Affairs journal. They said “grandstanding often manifests itself in acts of piling on. The reiteration of something that has already been said, in order to get in on the action and to register one's inclusion on what one believes to be the right side”. They also went on to say, “one way to understand piling on is as an expression of a widely studied phenomenon in social psychology, that of social comparison, people generally want to perceive themselves favourably and be perceived favourably by others”. Everyone wants to have their say, these days, and, and I think the start of social media has encouraged that, this idea that every little thought that you have, is worthy of public sharing. And I think there's also fear, you know, it's like bullying in schools, right? Someone's gonna get picked on so if it's not me, I'd rather jump in on that, because otherwise it might turn to me if, if it's on someone else, then I'm safe. And there's also an element of, you know, when someone has really been built up as maybe like a national hero, as beloved, when it comes out that maybe they're not perfect, or that they're maybe worse than not perfect, that there's sort of a pattern of unpleasant behaviour that's been hidden from from us. People feel like they've been duped. They feel like they're stupid, that they’ve fallen for something and they feel conned. And as a result of that, they really want to kind of in equal proportion that they loved someone before they want to hate on them now. I think there was a sense of betrayal people have.
Lisa 12:45
Yes for Philip Schofield, but why are there daily calls for Holly Willoughby to be axed. You know, one commentator on Twitter said “she knew everything and turned a blind eye. If she had any integrity, she'd resign”. And then someone else said, “There's nothing funny about calling Holly Willoughby a little bit on GB news. A news channel should be not airing blatant verbal abuse. Anyone would think Holly had lied about having an affair with a younger male colleague. Stop holding women responsible for men's actions.”
Sarah 13:12
It vaguely reminds me of Marie Antoinette. This kind of, her life is so nice. She's stealing all the happiness and success. And also that scandal is sort of infectious really, you know, you're tainted by it if you're at least near to it. Or people start going, what did you know? Did you collude? And they've definitely created their brand as a sort of team very, you know, husband, TV and wife, best friends. You know, she was there front and centre supporting him when he came out as gay. So now it's going, well if we've been taken in by him, and actually, the narrative that's being built, that it's not just this one event that like, actually, maybe he's a terrible person, overall, they go, Well, you're tarred with the same brush then because it's like, well, if he was a horrible person, she must be a horrible person too, which isn't necessarily true. But it does seem to be sort of, Oh, is she going to come out unscathed? And, and I think, you know, as we talked about with Gwyneth as well, she does have that blonde pretty queen bee element. And I think envy and jealousy comes out like you know, she's she's got all the happiness, so that's not happy, you know, and so easier to hate on her because she already triggers that, that feeling.
Lisa 14:24
Yeah. And I like what Spiked’s Brendon O'Neil wrote on the whole matter, he said this, “This Morning has always been a mix of frivolous and the moralistic. One minute you're watching Clodagh McKenna make soda bread, the next you're watching Schofield and Holly Willoughby play judge and jury to some witless shoplifter or a man who's had too much plastic surgery. There are YouTube clips titled Philip Schofield destroys someone or other. Now the same has been done to him. The ringmaster has become the freak, the scalp hunter has been scalped.”
Sarah 14:55
Yeah. I mean. It's like you know when they say - you live by the sword you die by the sword.
Lisa
Yeah.
Sarah
How, what you contribute to to the world, it's quite hard to then complain if it comes back to you. Now, I haven't really watched that much This Morning, and I haven't watched these video things, so I don't know how much he has destroyed other people. So I can't really speak on that. But, you know, if you've been beloved, it's definitely a cycle. You've been built up. But when they come for you, they all come for you and it is savage. As much as you've been loved, you're now going to be hated in reaction. And it did make me think of Caroline Flack, who was another ITV presenter, and she was plagued by a scandal and it ended very tragically. I mean, she committed suicide. And it does make you wonder what is going on at ITV and the culture and even her own mother, so Caroline Flack’s mother, Christine has spoken out. And she appeared on BBC’s Newsnight where she showed support for Schofield, and she accused ITV of not learning anything following her daughter's death. She said “it's bad enough when it's in private, but when it's in every single paper, and first thing on the news, it’s just ridiculous. Wait to see what happens”. And she also added that stars are treated as commodities by TV stations who earn money from them. “But they're not commodities. They're people, and they're employed. And if my employer didn't take care of me, there’d be all held to pay, and there's not. They're just sidelined, and they're not protected”. Yes, people have to be held accountable for their actions, but, but the vitriol that people go after some people, it does make me think of a mediaeval mob, you know, and, you know, stoning people to death. And it's like, yes, there should be consequences. You know, maybe they shouldn't be given these huge contracts and employed in the same way. But being stalked outside your house, being consistently degraded is a whole different thing.
Lisa 16:56
So that now brings me to how we've handled online hostile feedback, or negative feedback. But we did discuss before doing this podcast how we handle feedback. And you know, because I was a bit nervous, because I've like I said, I've done social media for brands, I know what it's like to be on the negative end of a backlash. And we said, well look, we have to get ourselves out though, we have to handle that sometimes we will not hear what we want to hear.
Sarah 17:21
Yeah, and and you can't be liked by everyone, someone is going to have a, people are gonna have a reaction. And someone told me, someone whose advice I very much admire, they said to me, in a way, if you're having no reaction at all, then you're not, you're not speaking a truth, you're not out there, you know, when when you really hold true to to yourself, someone will have a reaction. It just means that they've been triggered, or something's been mirrored in them. And that's, that's okay. And you're just gonna have to deal with that. And it's not really about you. It's about them. But as we're all human, I don't think anyone likes criticism. I don't understand that American roast thing, because I'm like, yeah, I don't really understand getting people together to like, take the piss out of me, but…
Lisa 18:11
You have to have a quite a robust therapist on hand.
Sarah 18:14
Yeah, well, I don't think I’m quite so masochistic, in that sense. And also, before you've done anything, there's the fear of like, your imagination goes wild with what could happen. Oh, my God, what if this turns into like some huge scandal, it's like, probably not, I mean, we'll be lucky if 10 people listen, you know, so let's just calm down, you have to kind of get over that fear to be able to say anything.
Lisa 18:37
So let's actually talk about like, the fact that we've had lots of lovely and positive feedback. But we do want to grow, you've got to get constructive feedback. And we've had some, so that's been really useful. And if you want to send us more, please DM us on Instagram. But there was one group who seemed pretty angry with us. And that was a group of commentators about our Alice Evans episode. So just to remind you that I think that was episode two, and it was called ‘The Right Kind of Wrong Woman: The Case of Alice Evans and Jennifer Aniston.’ And just as a bit of background, we picked those two women, because we were interested in analysing, what does it take to be sympathised with, in the public opinion.
Sarah 19:15
During a breakup.
Lisa 19:17
Yeah, exactly. So I discovered that our episode was, like I said, creating a bit of a stir with a group of people. There was this group of anti Alice Evans women, I'm not going to name the site that took exception to our episode. And if you've not listened to it, that was episode 2, so stop here and just go back and listen to it and tell us if you think we’re being fair. But these sites, like I said, I don't want to name them or give them energy but they're dedicated it feels they say they're sort of just fairly critiquing anonymously instagramers and women in the public eye are making a living out of sort of making other women feel less than. So sort of shaming us you know, because they don't have perfect lives. But other people said they’re doing something quite different to what they say they're doing.
Sarah 20:01
And for example, Glamour UK described some of these online sites as being dedicated to abusing women. So the writer Ellie Araham, she said “despite how much they appear to loathe their victims, these trolls continue to view and commentate on their content. The vitriol is near constant and at times oversteps into the victim's personal lives to an alarming extent, including attempts to find their home addresses, how much they paid for their houses and other personal information”.
Lisa 20:26
And like I said, these users commented on our episode titled The Right Kind of Wrong Woman: The Case of Alice Evans and Jennifer Aniston. And someone posted our podcast on this site and said “2021 calling! How does anyone still think she was wronged in any way? I bailed at this video at seven minutes. I hope the 42 minutes remaining were less tedious”. And someone else said on there to be fair to us, they said, “Those who don't want to listen to this, there was a transcript in the description, I just skimmed it earlier today. But they did a good job discussing this without being too judgmental, though this automatically does make them too lenient on Alice, but they disclaimed it from the start, that they don't want to judge specifics”.
Sarah
Exactly.
Lisa
Yeah. And then the other comment was, “WTF what is right about getting a restraining order. And is she wronged woman? They trot out every cliche in the book, poor Alice gave up her career, blah, blah, blah, she has the right to be angry, blah, blah, blah, yawn”. So remember, these are anonymous users and the other one demands “Who are they anyway?” And then on YouTube, we had this comment. “If you're going to talk about the subject, it might be worth doing more research”. And then they go into a lot of detail about the intricacies of the restraining order and complained that we hadn't done that in the episode.
Sarah 21:40
Yeah, I mean, as in fairness as that that one comment said, that we had made a disclaimer at the start of the episode. And so I'm just going to reiterate that so people know what we did say right at the beginning, which was “we're not trying to work out who's telling the truth or not. And we're not trying to decide who's the good one and who's the bad one. We're here to look at how society frames breakup stories, and how and why people react to them in certain ways. And then we go on to say, we felt it was important to say this, because we know a lot of people have strong feelings about the stories we're covering today”. And I sort of feel like the reaction and, and in fairness, that's quite mild. I don't, I don't think that we got hit by horrendous things at all. And I completely respect everyone's right to have an opinion, you know, go for it. But it almost feels a bit like they proved our own point, which is that people do get so invested in certain stories that they project their own stuff onto it. And, you know, it is really important to remember that not everyone is going to like what you do and you know, there are times on certain days where I'll read something. And if my frequency is high, if I'm feeling good about myself, I can read all these kind of comments or whatever. I can read stories, where they're saying fat people are horrible. And I go, you know, that's, that's your problem. I feel sorry, not I feel sorry for you in a patronising way. But I feel sad for you that that's your focus and that this is your, you know, this is really all about your own psychology. And there are other days when I'm feeling less, less good about myself when I'm feeling more insecure, where, you know, I might read the same story and be like, oh, yeah, see, this is why all people hate fat people and I shouldn't leave the house. You know, you have those moments. And I think it really depends on the day how you're going to take it and we're human. We're all human. No one likes to be told that they're shit.
Lisa 23:29
No. And to be honest, I cut out a lot of the comments, which was just like, you know, who are you, I said about the who are you, but they were like, almost like we're enabling an abuser because we hadn't taken a stance. Like we said, we hadn't taken a hard take. And we try to be factual, but like we said, we weren't going to be exhaustive legal experts. But what was noticeable was that someone had posted 20 minutes later ,someone a lawyer had done a big I think video about the case, but very anti Alice, and that video got masses of like, so it's like that person had fed that group of people exactly what they wanted. They wanted, they say, oh, they'll stand by it and probably say it was really factual. And it's important because it's illuminating that women can be abusive to men. But it was interesting, like they took our video and we're like, no, you’re enablers. So yeah. So, last story. It's the viral story of Kylie Jenner hooking up with Timothy. Or like you found in the…
Sarah
Timothée
Lisa
He's actually Timothéewhich I thought was a shampoo. Timothy Chalamet. So for a bit of background, Kylie Jenner we all probably know her. She's probably gotten the biggest Instagram followings in the world. Self made billionaire. She was star of the Kardashians, founder of the, you know, Kylie Cosmetics, and perhaps more famous for an incredible face and body which, you know, it's been a big transformation what she looked like before, particularly her lips. And then you've got, do you want to say his name?
Sarah
Timothée Chalamet
Lisa
Is an American French actor. He came to prominence in the coming of age film, Call Me By Your Name, and was nominated for an Oscar. He previously has been linked to Lily Rose Depp and some of the comments that we heard about this because they've been spotted in I think they're very long lens cameras spotted Kylie Jenner andTimothée… I’ll call him Timothy, can I call him Timothy?
Sarah
Yes, you can call him Timothy.
Lisa
Together in a garden. And what was really strange as I think there's been rumours circulating that they were together and people couldn't quite believe it. And someone commented, and it really did make me laugh on Reddit. “Now why are these shots looking like a Bigfoot sighting? Did they take them from a helicopter?” And then someone said, “Look, Kris did the best she could”. So that’s Kris Jenner, the mother. Because they were really creepy, the photos I feel bad to say I've even looked at them. But the big thing is the online reactions to the two of them. And someone said “odd pairing. Though she's theoretically younger, it looks like a middle-aged mob wife dating her teen son's friend.”
Sarah 25:56
Yeah, I mean, I mean, it's so interesting how people look at couples as if they're supposed to match somehow visually. We all have this idea or this idea that one person - Oh, are you are you dating out of your league? This kind of idea, as if attraction and love and things like that can be measured visually. I suppose there is a point that with the Kardashians there's been a pattern in Kylie and some of her sisters’ dating history that like she's she's mainly been linked to African American rappers who have this quite masculine, you know, dangerous sort of…
Lisa
Persona
Sarah
Persona, that's the one! And he looks more like a poetry major.
Lisa
Stop it!
Sarah
He's he's he's, you know, very French, very, like the sort of longer curly hair, very slight. So, so people go, Oh, well, there's something wrong with this.
Lisa 26:55
And you're absolutely on the right track because loads of people comment on the odd pairing. They say, “this makes no sense to me. He's polite and articulate. A really good actor and she's none of these”. And can I just read some of the other comments.
Sarah
Yeah
Lisa
“Everyone's acting like he's too good for her. Clearly, they do not know his dating history. He loves a rich well connected Nepo baby. First Madonna's daughter (Lourdes) then Johnny Depp's. Kylie is unfortunately, exactly his type.” Last one maybe I should read is “it kinda reminds me of how Kate Winslet and Leo DiCaprio’s fans could not accept that she was not the love of his life when he's been dating the exact same type of model hotties all his whole life. Timmy stans want him with someone like Saiorse. They can't accept that his tastes have always been far less sophisticated. lol”
Sarah 27:41
Yeah, I mean, there's already a judgement there of the right type of person and whose should they should be with and I think people like to categorise people and go, like should be with like. And yet there's always that, that, you know, phrase of opposites attract. I used to often think, you know, I'm quite a big woman, that if I'm with a tiny guy, are people going to be like, Oh, they look like an odd couple. But to be honest, who you fall in love with really has nothing to do with that, or it hasn't for myself. And I think there's also an element, so there has been rumours that this is a Showmance. You know, that's what they were saying, oh, Kris is doing the best she can, that it raises her profile, maybe it raises his profile.
Lisa
Yeah.
Sarah
There's no way we can know that. But I do think that when people think there's an element of Showmance, or that people like the Kardashians have used everything in their personal life to raise their profile to become famous, to make a lot of money, people feel they have more of a right to get all the information, they want to comment on it, to weigh in on it and stalk them, so to speak, because they've already put themselves in a public place. And because they're making money off of us as the audience so it's like, well, you can't just decide when you want to stop sharing. So I think that's where a lot of people come in with that sort of approach of like, we want to know, and we have a right to know,
Lisa 29:00
There's also, there's all these undertones also of like, and like making jokes about, but there's like this idea like he's high culture, she's low culture.
Sarah
Yeah.
Lisa
And it's like, what could they possibly have in common? Well, they might just really fancy the fuck out of each other, do you know what I mean?
Sarah 29:15
I mean, it could just be shagging. It could just be shagging.
Lisa 29:19
But also, I was really bothered, I remember back at the time that people really went on and we talked about this, I think Kate Winslet, in the fat shaming episode, that they went she was too womanly for Leo, you know. There's something like it's a bit he's just meant to go out with, like Natalie Portman types. Do you really mean?
Sarah 29:33
Yeah, like there's a body type appropriateness, you know? Yeah, you know, what I've noticed as well? So I'm 5’11. Whenever I go on dating sites, I don't have a problem with what height a man is. And there's there's a lot of people who seem to have, say, oh, women only want tall men, you know, and then people put their height in their profile and stuff and I don't have a problem if a guy is shorter than me, but I sometimes worry that they're going to have problem being shorter than me and their insecurity is going to come out. So that's where I think it becomes a sort of like, thing where you gotta go, oh, like, if you're securing yourself, I really don't mind. But if you're gonna feel uncomfortable, because you're, you think that I'm not gonna like it, then that's just too exhausting for me to deal with.
Lisa 30:18
Yeah. And it's funny because other people then we're like, you know, Oh, do you remember when Cher and Tom Cruise went out? Like these odd celebrity pairings. And there was some quite funny pairings. And people keep, still go on about like Madonna and Tupac. They're like, oh they were together? Like, yeah, they were, he wrote lots of love letters about her. So, like you said, who, who can say who you fancy and love, you know?
Sarah
Yeah.
Lisa
Sp it'd be interesting, interesting to see if Kris Jenner can get them on The Met carpet next year together. So Sarah, we always end up episodes with final thoughts. Why do we do that?
Sarah 30:54
I think one of the reasons we wanted to do the final thoughts was to round up the episode, you know, like a conclusion. But in a way that framed the story within our role in society in general. We wanted to bring the focus back to society as a whole and how we participate in it. And as we've mentioned many times, being such 90s babies, I think we took a little inspiration from Jerry Springer and his closing thoughts, but with a bit more of our own sort of psychology driven spin. But so much of the media encourages polarised opinions. And they're happy to tap into anger and hate as long as you keep clicking, reading and essentially buying their product. I mean, this is often termed ‘hate scrolling’, or ‘doom scrolling’, and I've even seen someone say it's ‘envy scrolling’. But the goal with it, it's never really to change anything or to solve the problem. As Gwyneth has previously said, the aim is to “monetize those eyeballs”. But I think we have a lot more power than we give ourselves credit. I mean, we, we all have the choice to stop watching and buying if it doesn't feel like it adds anything to our lives. We have the choice to look at something that doesn't appeal to us and say - that's okay, that's not for me, and then just keep on walking. And more than that, we also have the opportunity to look at our reactions to these stories, and to ask ourself, what is it that's triggering me? And what does my response tell me about myself and my motivations? And finally, what impact are the attitudes that society has on different themes having on my own daily life, and how I feel about myself? As I'm sure you'll agree, our aim has never been to preach at people. And I firmly believe in free choice and respecting that, you know, what's right, for one person, it really might not be right for another. But I think in the final thoughts, what I wanted was to also encourage people to look at themselves, as well as those around them a little more, and to be clearer on what drives them and why and I think there's a great freedom and self knowledge, and it's the foundation for the change that we ultimately want to make in our lives.
Lisa 32:53
Hmm, I think so. And I know this has been a real mishmash of an episode and sort of, it's a strange, like with the Philip Schofield story, Lizzo, Drew Barrymore, the Alice Evans story. What I'm thinking about is do we really through social media, and the media, want to drive people, like it’s not just like that they're wrong, and we forced them to acknowledge that they're wrong and apologise, but that you want to just crucify them. And I genuinely think that that shouldn't be the end goal when we go online. I mean, I mean, it just seems so at odds with the world we're living in, which is like talking about mental health. I don't even know how people can talk about mental health, and then be on a crusade or they say they’re mental health advocates, but then to destroy other people. I don't get it. And that is, I think, ultimately, the higher purpose of this podcast is that and also, I just love to analyse things, from JLo to makeup brands, I find it fascinating and I hope you do too who is listening, and thank you for joining us on this journey.
Sarah 33:49
Okay, so that's a wrap for part two of our bonus episode. And as we mentioned, in part one, we will be back in two weeks on June the 22nd, with a whole new episode, and then from then on, we'll be dropping episodes on a fortnightly schedule. If you've seen any comments or stories you'd like us to cover, then drop us a DM on Instagram or send us a message through our website. Links will be found in the show notes. So see you soon
Lisa 34:11
See you soon. Thank you to our lovely producer Emily. If you enjoy today's episode, please don't forget to leave a review and subscribe. It really does help us in reaching more people.
Sarah 34:22
Also, you can follow us on Instagram at straight to the comments podcast. Our handle is @st2cpodcast. And join us next time when we'll be diving headfirst straight to the comments. See you there. This podcast has been produced by Emily Crosby Media.